Tom Burton Interview

Another gold medallist for you to enjoy today as Off The Podium brings you our interview with Rio 2016 Olympic Gold Medalist in the Laser sailing class, Tom Burton. Tom goes over his career, from gaining a passion for sailing at a young age and having it intensified during the Sydney Olympics, through to the difficult days of training and maintaining his passion and narrowly missing out on a spot for the 2012 Olympics before his 2016 success. He also talks up his hopes for 2020 and his desire to try his hand at other sailing regattas in the future.

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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Please note this is an automated transcript that may contain errors.

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BEN WATERWORTH: Hello and welcome again to Off the Podium, and Olympics podcast. As we continue our series of interviews with past and present Olympians from around the world. Well really just from Canada and Australia. We’ll see how the other ones from the world go. But time to chat to another Australian Olympian today. Another Australian Olympic gold medallist. And another Australian Olympic gold medallist from Rio. I do of course speak of Tom Burton, who won gold in the laser class in Rio, in a really unique and an amazing way. Went into the final day of racing, really behind the eight ball, looked like he could potentially win bronze medal and had to go out of his way really to make sure that he could win the gold in a real strategic effort eventually to win it. It was one of the more famous gold medals of the games for Australia. And basically had to go into the event against his Croatian rival to force him into a mistake in order to then go on to win the gold. Now, Tonci Stipanovic had the clear lead, but that mistake happened and Tom forced him into that mistake. Then he had to finish in the top three to get a gold, and he did exactly that. And it was well documented in the media here just about how amazing it was. And obviously, Tom very pumped. Now, Tom narrowly missed out on a 2012 Olympics spot in the laser category, a spot that went on to Tom Slingsby, who went on to win the gold in London. So this, of course, means that Australia has won the last two laser categories at the Olympics. So a lot to chat about Tom in this interview, and it's obviously going to be very insightful for you to listen to. So let's now cross over to myself in some way and listen to my interview with Olympic gold medallist Tom Burton. Tom, welcome to the show.

TOM BURTON: Yeah, thanks a lot.

BEN WATERWORTH: It's a pleasure to have you here, mate. As I just mentioned, six months now since Rio. I mean, that must seem crazy to think that after all the preparation, no doubt leading into it and working up to that moment, that it's been half a year since you were even there.

TOM BURTON: I didn't even know it had been that long, actually, so, yeah. Yeah, it's scary to think that it's been that long. I remember, you know, two weeks before the game, I was actually thinking, you know, in two weeks, this is all gonna be over. And everything I've been training years and years for is just gonna be, no matter what the result is, it's just gonna be finished, and you will either be really happy or very disappointed. So, yeah, it's funny that six months has passed.

BEN WATERWORTH: Have things managed to calm down, I guess, since Rio? Have it just been on a whirlwind of emotions with all the parades and all the events, no doubt, that you've attended, or has it just kind of gotten back to normal now when you're just focusing on the next thing at the moment?

TOM BURTON: A little bit of both, I guess, you know, I was attending a few things before Christmas, but obviously over Christmas, everyone has their things that they do, and then it gets busy for them. So it's calmed down over there. But actually, you know, I sailed today, you know, first day kind of back in the boat since, you know, a few weeks. And then I'm on my way at the moment to attend a function where I'm speaking. So, you know, some days are definitely better than others.

BEN WATERWORTH: And what's the feeling like then getting back in that boat, sort of just being one out there with the water and sort of just, I guess, as I said, moving on to the next thing, is it just backing your element, backing your zone? I guess being out there in the water is where you prefer to be. I mean, that's obviously why you do sailing. I mean, it must be good to be able to go back out there in the water and just get back into it.

TOM BURTON: I think it's, you know, I haven't done that much laser sailing, which is the boat that I won gold in, but I have done a lot of other sailing since being home. So that's kind of a goal of mine in this next year, and I've kind of been hitting it pretty hard recently of experiencing other boats and sailing something that I really love and enjoy. But sometimes the amount of hours I've spent in the one boat pairing to the Olympics, sometimes just like anyone's job, it can sometimes get a little stale. So changing boats, but it's good to get back in the laser now after having a decent amount of time off and start to slowly tip away.

BEN WATERWORTH: Now, I believe you took up sailing when you were quite young after following your dad to sailing regattas. I mean, was this always a sort of a passion of your dad and your family? I mean, how did sailing, I guess, come into the mindset of Tom Burton?

TOM BURTON: Yeah, I think I've got, you know, stories I can't really remember that, you know, we couldn't... I think my mum, you know, she couldn't give birth to me, you know, because he was at a sailing regatta, and, you know, all the timing of that needed to, you know, try and line up with him sailing at the regatta that he was at. So all those things, and I've got photos of me, you know, that I can't remember, you know, sitting on a boat where I must have been, you know, one year old or however old I was. So, yeah, you know, always being around the water definitely helps, you know, to get into it and, you know, become passionate about it.

BEN WATERWORTH: And I believe that the Olympics passion came from a school excursion to the Olympics back in 2000 when you were about 10 years old. I mean, was that moment seeing the sailing and obviously the success that Australia had during those games, of course, in the sport, did that really then spur that passion for you to ultimately achieve going to the Olympics one day?

TOM BURTON: Oh, it's always hard, you know, it's a huge goal to say. So, you know, some people and myself included, you know, it's pretty daunting to say that you want to go to the Olympics because when you're really young, it's, you know, so far away, the mountain's so high to climb, I guess. But yeah, you know, when I was in school, actually, there was a school excursion, I went to the Paralympics in, you know, Homebush in New York and watched some of the sports there. But while the Olympics was on, you know, my dad was taking me and also my mum, and as a family kind of day out, we'd go to Bradley's head on the city harbour and watch the racing, you know, through binoculars and stuff. And as a 10-year-old, I was kind of just running around on the grass and all that sort of stuff. So, and kind of, you know, just getting the results, you know, it didn't really mean much to me at the time, but I definitely remember it.

BEN WATERWORTH: You mentioned, of course, before, in terms of getting out there, trying some different boats and that, obviously, your class that you did win the gold in, of course, is laser. What is it like choosing the different categories out there in the sport? Because ultimately, there's a large amount of different categories, different boats that you can compete in. And what is it about, then, laser that, I guess, really tickled your fancy to really pursue that the way that you ultimately would?

TOM BURTON: I guess just like any sport as well. Like in sailing, we do have a few different classes, and a lot of those is, you know, they cover a range of weights and, you know, your sizes. So some boats, you know, you really, you're going to have to lose a lot of weight or some boats you actually, you know, you're not going to either be big enough or small enough for. So you kind of need to, you know, pick the boat that you want to sail and adapt your body slightly. And also, you know, pick the one that you're actually going to be able to sail. But also, you know, something unique about the laser is it's one design class. So a few of the other classes, they've got things that you can change. So, you know, the more money you have, the more stuff you can buy. You know, go through equipment and get the best stuff. You get a little bit of an edge, but with the laser, it's just it's one design. So everyone, you know, the boats are supplied to you at the Olympics. So everyone has exactly the same. And, you know, you can't bring your own. You can't tinker with it and make it special. So you get it, you know, two weeks before the event, and you have to compete with that.

BEN WATERWORTH: And does that make it difficult or does that, I guess, in a way, given that everyone gets the same one, it makes it more even. But I guess, in a way, you want to get to know that boat. And if you've only got two weeks to sort of accustomize yourself to it, I mean, is there sort of a way about doing that? Can you get a boat that you think to yourself, well, crap, this is going to not suit my style or suit how I'm going to, you know, try and attempt to compete in these races?

TOM BURTON: Yeah, definitely. We have kind of two major manufacturers. We have one in Australia. So a lot of the time, we're using Australian-built boats when we're, you know, for the four years before, actually, and whenever we're in Australia. But for the Olympics, they actually get supplied by the dealer in the UK. So, and even though, you know, they're pretty much identical anyway, just because the way they're manufactured in the climates and everything, they, you know, they sound a little different, the colour's a little different. So all that sort of stuff can impact on the way you feel the boat and kind of see it out of the corner of your eye. So for the last year, I was using boats that were built from the UK in preparation for the Olympic Games.

BEN WATERWORTH: And what's that training regime like then in that preparation? So you're using obviously that style of boat you're mentioning. Is it a case of just getting out there on the water as much as you can and I guess replicating race conditions and also outside of being on the water then the gym? I'm guessing it's a very upper body style of training that you've got to get used to with all the things that you've got to do out there on the boat on the water?

TOM BURTON: Yeah, so we spent in the last year, you try and spend as much time as you can at the actual venue where you're going to be racing, just to get used to exactly the water that you're going to be sailing on and everything to do with that. And also, all the big regattas, you try and simulate like it's the Olympic Games. So you try and put as much pressure as you would on yourself and try and really perform right here and now. So then you get a few chances at replicating that. With the gym stuff, predominantly we hold ourselves outside the boats by our legs. So we're kind of in a static hold, I guess. If people went to the local gym and got on the leg extension machine where you just make your legs go straight, pretty much go reasonably heavy and put your legs as straight as you can. That's pretty much the muscle group that we're using to hold ourselves out of the boat. So we do a lot of that sort of stuff in the gym. And then also for the cardio side, we do a lot of road cycling. Here's a good one that we do for our cross-training.

BEN WATERWORTH: It must be interesting heading to the gym and I guess training with other athletes. And you've got people training for various different events, and somebody comes up to you and says, oh, what are you training for? Oh, sailing. I mean, I guess kind of it's not really a sport you often think of, maybe people working that hard out at a gym. But obviously, as you mentioned, there's plenty of work to do. I mean, I couldn't even imagine me getting out there on a boat. Tom, I'd probably sink as soon as I get out there.

TOM BURTON: Yeah, well, it is one of those sports as well that it's not just physical. It's very mental. The decisions that you make impact it more than your fitness, nearly. So in light winds, fitness doesn't really bring into the equation at all. So there's so much more than fitness. Like for sure, the fittest guy out there is not necessarily going to win the race, you know, nearly every time. So yeah, it's a little tricky. Yeah, so we often with our own team, we kind of have a little in-joke that it's a little law of looks. So the better you look, actually the worse you sail because you spend too much time in front of doing the weights that are getting you ready for the beach instead of actually sailing.

BEN WATERWORTH: Right, okay, so people are focusing too much on sort of the different type of sailing rather than the competitive one, just looking good out there in some really fancy boat rather than going for the gold medal, I guess. So I also read in another interview that, I mean, given sailing, of course, a lot of equipment needed and a lot of money, I guess, along the way to fund across the board. I mean, you would do things in order to save money to make sure that you could continue doing it by doing little things like avoiding tolls on the way to training and that. I mean, I guess through those difficult times and really making sure that you're out there and continuing your passion, is it that passion that keeps driving you, you know, that ultimate goal of an Olympic gold medal or a world championship through those tough days that you can think, I'm going to do this, I'm going to achieve this one day?

TOM BURTON: Like that, you know, you set a goal and, you know, if the goal is very big, you know, it seems too far away sometimes. So you need to set small ones along the way to kind of keep you motivated. Otherwise, you know, you can easily get distracted and think that it's, you know, too far out of reach. But yeah, you know, when I first started, I was just getting funded by my parents pretty much, paying for everything. And, you know, to get to sailing, it was, you know, three beeps on my ETAG on the tolls. And, you know, it was kind of tense. So $20 a day going to sailing, you know, it definitely adds up. And, you know, the amount that I've probably paid in tolls through my career would be, you know, definitely a lot. And, you know, you need to keep thinking to yourself, why are you doing this? And, for sure, you need to be very passionate about it.

BEN WATERWORTH: You were very close, of course, to making the Olympics in 2012, lost out on that spot to eventual gold medallist in London, Tom Slingsby. I mean, how disappointed is that to get so close, to get overlooked, and I guess then watch Tom go on to win that gold? I guess there would be a mixture of emotions, obviously happy for your teammate that he's gone on to win that gold, but thinking what could have been at that point, I guess.

TOM BURTON: Yeah, it's a little strange. I think, you know, obviously the Olympics was in 2012, but the selection for the Olympics is actually in 2011. And in 2011, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't anywhere near the level that he was at. A range of things changed in 2012, which really, you know, changed my results. You know, I really started performing really well in 2012, and it could be a range of things that, you know, there was no pressure on me anymore to be, you know, potentially going to the Olympic Games because the selection was done. We knew who was going to go. You know, the whole team of laser sailors kind of banded together more as a family to kind of help him prepare to go to win. And then in that, we all got to train closer together because there was no in rivalry now. We're all kind of, you know, helping each other to the one goal. Obviously, only one person can go, but in my mentality, I just want to, you know, improve my sailing skills and ability. And, you know, it didn't really matter, you know, the Olympic Games or not, I needed to get better. And then that helped me. So in 2012, I was performing really well. So it looked, for sure, it looked a lot closer results wise between myself and Tom Slingsby, who eventually won goal. But, you know, the actual selection wasn't really close. But definitely, you know, it definitely helped me to, you know, pick up my game and start to get better results.

BEN WATERWORTH: And with that, you did get the better results, as you're mentioning there, right up through, of course, to Rio. What was that moment like then when you ultimately get the nod and say, yep, you're going to the Olympics, you're going to Rio, you're representing Australia in the laser?

TOM BURTON: Yeah, it was a weird feeling, actually. You know, a very similar situation happened with myself and another Australian for the selection. But maybe a year closer, as in the selection was actually quite close in the actual selection year. So it dragged on a little bit, the selection process. But, you know, it was, we were actually in Rio, both of us were in Rio preparing and training, and they rang us with a time zone difference and everything and talked to us both then. So it was a little weird feeling, obviously. One very excited and one very disappointed. But we kept working together throughout the whole time, because we knew, we both had the mentality that we don't want to just go to the Olympic Games, even though it's a great achievement just to go. But we were both, whoever was going to go, was going to have a pretty damn hot go at bringing home the gold medal.

BEN WATERWORTH: We were being in Rio in that preparation with the amount of time that you did spend, of course, in the lead up to the Olympics, obviously, to acclimatise yourself to the conditions. What were the conditions like in Rio compared to other places that you had sailed at? Were they unique and did that sort of time you spent there help you, ultimately, when it came to the Games?

TOM BURTON: Yeah, the biggest difference that we had, the wave pattern is some of the things that you need to really practise with, spending a lot of time there. But it wasn't too dissimilar to stay off Sydney Heads, so that was something quite good, but something that we don't really experience very much in Australia, that they have a lot of, and they made a huge difference, was they had a lot of tide. So within their bay there, you have tide going a bunch of different ways. So if you can think the water is travelling in all different directions, so you could have on one side of the course, the water going one way, and on the other side of the course, the water going the complete opposite way. So if you didn't really know that, and you couldn't take advantage of that, there would be pretty much no chance that you're going to win.

BEN WATERWORTH: I mean, the laser program itself, we enjoyed covering the sailing on our show throughout the Olympics, because we're fascinated by the amount of races that you guys are doing and just how complex it all is. I mean, ten different races leading into a medal race, and then ultimately the medal race and all the things that you've got to do in order to try and win a gold. I mean, how do you mentally prepare yourself for that? Because each day is different. You're going to have a good race, you're going to have a bad race, and it ultimately all comes down to one race. I mean, as you're going back to saying before, it's not all physical, it's mental. I mean, is there preparations that you can do to, I guess, mentally prepare yourself for such a high class event at the peak of the sport throughout that period leading into the final day when you're going for those medals?

TOM BURTON: Well, I think the main thing and something that I focused a lot on is consistency. I think if you look at my results, I never won a race, but my worst race was the best worst race of everyone. And obviously my points were lower overall. But one other big thing is that every regatta, you can simulate and pretend that this is the Olympic Games and practice that and putting the pressure on yourself for that event. And you really don't want to have to go to the Olympics and perform out of your skin to win. So one major thing that I was always thinking about was you need to get your skills so high that even if you sailed at 90% of capacity of what you think you can do, you hope that that is good enough to win as well. So that's kind of what you're spending all the hours training for.

BEN WATERWORTH: And the medal race comes about. I mean, it was an amazing result for you obviously to ultimately come from where you did to win the gold. You know, your Croatian rival, Tonjic Stjepanovic, the elements that involved there with the strategy, basically him having to get a penalty, then you having to get into the top three. I mean, how going into that day, knowing everything that you had to do, I mean, it seemed to work out perfectly for you in the end, but did you go into that thinking, this is going to work, I'm going to do this, or is it all or nothing, I'm just going for the gold and we'll see what happens?

TOM BURTON: Oh, no, you know, I kind of thought in my own head that I had probably had more chance of getting the bronze medal than the gold medal, because Tonsu was only going to, could ever get gold or silver, so he was going to try and make me get a worse result, so he would definitely win gold. And then you had the New Zealander that could sail his own race and go off and do his own thing. So it was definitely a tricky situation, but with all the tactics and strategy behind it, it's so variable and anything can change really quickly out there. So you just got to kind of... You can't have a plan in some end. It's just got to be on your feet, changing all the time, very relaxed mentally because you can't take anything too seriously. It's just got to be ready to adapt and take anything that comes. So that was kind of my mentality. And when you get a chance, you really got to capitalise on it. And I got my chance and capitalised on it.

BEN WATERWORTH: It's really a fascinating element of the sport because, I mean, a lot of sports out there, I guess it's frowned upon to try and force your opponent into a penalty or make them get penalized. But I mean, is this generally accepted in all forms of sailing? Is it just a laser thing that you can basically go out of your way to make sure that they get a penalty to help your cause ultimately on winning the race?

TOM BURTON: Oh, it's just a sailing thing in general. You know, obviously, there's so many things in sailing. You know, the two major things would be strategy and tactics. And strategy, you kind of, you know, the basic way to say it is, you know, time trial around the course by yourself. So if you were just out there by yourself, which way would you go with the wind? You know, which side of the course do you think the wind is the best? And how are you going to get around the course the fastest? And tactics is what are you going to do compared to every other boat out there? So, you know, obviously, everyone's trying to do the exact same thing and come first. So how are you going to beat everyone else? And sometimes that's slowing other people down, so you can beat them. And I mean, in the exact situation, you know, he was trying to use the tactic to get a penalty on me, to make me come last so he could win the gold medal. So, you know, I was using the exact same strategy, but, you know, it went my way.

BEN WATERWORTH: And when, I guess, you realise it's gone all your way, and you're getting closer and closer, and you realise you're going to win a gold, I mean, are you working that out in your head? Did you know at a certain point, I've done everything I can do, this is gold for me, or did it take until crossing the line to realise, oh, hang on a minute, I've won the gold?

TOM BURTON: I knew the point, obviously, but, yeah, I never looked back to see where he was. So I know he's very fast, you know, very capable sailor, so I could have easily turned around and saw that he had passed three boats, and then, you know, I'm going to win a silver medal, and that would have been fine as well. So I never actually looked back to see where he was. And I knew at the top mark the last time, where the position I was in and the position he was in, I still knew he was, you know, at the back then, that I was in silver at the moment, and I needed to pass one more boat to get the gold. And on the last downwind, I did, but I wasn't sure if he was still at the back. So it really wasn't till the last moment when I crossed the line, and I looked back to see him in last, but it kind of, you know, and it did sink in quite slowly as well. I kind of realised.

BEN WATERWORTH: Is it something that you've been able to, I guess, soak in now and realise that moment? I mean, is it something that you watch the footage of it a couple of times and go, wow, there we go, there's the gold medal, and just really, as you said, let it sink in eventually to go, this is it, I'm an Olympic champion.

TOM BURTON: Yeah, I nearly can't watch the footage without laughing because, you know, something like that could never happen again. Like, you know, after a few people have watched that and see what can actually happen, like, the odds were quite low. Yeah, and, you know, I think people will be a lot more scared about the situation and kind of, you know, protect their position a little harder now, knowing that, you know, those things are possible and it can happen, even though, you know, it looked very unlikely. So, yeah, it's quite funny. And then another thing, when I was watching it, you know, I didn't really realise that half the race I was actually in bronze medal position until I started passing some people. So, yeah, you know, the whole race, the way it unfolded, you know, couldn't have come out much better for me.

BEN WATERWORTH: Did Tom Slingsby end up saying anything to you? I mean, you basically defended Australia's, you know, hold on the event for another four years, you know, back to back gold for Australia in the category. I mean, he must have, I guess, been chuffed that you ultimately kept that streak going for us.

TOM BURTON: Yeah, well, I spoke to him a few days before the medal race, and I asked him a few questions just on the kind of match racing side of it and what he thought, and he gets to get his take on it. And, you know, he gave me some, you know, his thoughts, obviously, and some advice on that. And I kind of told him what I was thinking, and he gave me his opinion on, you know, my strategy that I was thinking in my own head. So that was great. And then I was sitting in drug control, actually, after. And, yeah, I had a missed message from him, and I just replied to it saying that, how do you like that? And, yeah, he congratulated me, and he couldn't have been happier as well.

BEN WATERWORTH: So have you managed to take the medal off, though, Tom? I mean, what do you do with it afterwards? I mean, I could imagine you just, you get it, and you just never want to let it go for a while after that.

TOM BURTON: Oh, not so much. It lives in the top of my cupboard at the moment, but it's still getting a fair bit of use, you know, taking around to the different things that I'm attending. So, yeah, you know, after, if I haven't attended anything for three weeks or so, I kind of forget that it's up there, to be honest. But then I've got one of the photos that I got from the Australian Olympic Committee up on my wall, you know, which is some of the best photos of the after the medal race and stuff that is the, you know, only 250 got made as a limited edition photos there. So, you know, those are some of the greatest photos, and, you know, that will definitely stay with me for the rest of my life.

BEN WATERWORTH: So, it's not something you've tried to get free stuff out of, you know, just like try to walk into a store and go, hey, gold medal, give me stuff or something along those lines.

TOM BURTON: Now, people tell me to try and do that, but I can't really bring myself to do it. Yeah, I'm not sure what, you know, if you use that, what it can actually get you.

BEN WATERWORTH: You never know. I'm trying to think really what ultimately it could. I mean, it obviously didn't work to try and get some people into the boomers game, but I guess they weren't all gold medallists. So, I mean, that could have been a bit different. But, you know, there's something you can put on your bucket list just to see, you know, what can I get with an Olympic gold medal around my neck?

TOM BURTON: Yeah, I think, you know, I think the more the time goes on, those sort of little sneaky tricks, they'll definitely come out.

BEN WATERWORTH: Exactly. So what's the plan now then, I guess, moving forward? I mean, obviously mentioning getting sort of slowly back into some sailing. I mean, do you have ambitions to perhaps go on towards Tokyo to defend your title or are there other forms of sailing, other regattas that you want to focus on, I guess, moving forward?

TOM BURTON: Yeah, at the moment, I'm looking forward to Tokyo as well. But obviously that's four years away. So, you know, the goal is four years away. So, you know, that's quite a long time. So along the road, I set some smaller goals. So this year, sailing a few different other boats and also I've got a world title in one of those other boats, which is the Foiling Mock, which is quite different than the boat that I went to the Olympics in. It's definitely more high performance and very technical. And also I've been doing a little bit of yacht stuff recently, which is more of a team and not just by yourself. So, you know, those are the kind of aspects of sailing that I miss out on a little bit, just sailing the laser, because it is quite basic and it's by yourself. You miss out on the team atmosphere. So, you know, those are big things in the next four years that I want to improve on.

BEN WATERWORTH: Well, being in Hobart, I, of course, have to ask, is the goal one day to perhaps maybe compete in the Sydney to Hobart and put that on your resume?

TOM BURTON: I was very close to doing it this year, actually. Just out of time and yeah, just missed out on it. But I'm sure in the next few years I'll be doing it. But yeah, the last four years it was never on my radar, but I'm open to a lot of different things now. Now that kind of one of the goals has ticked off, I can set some new ones.

BEN WATERWORTH: Well, I can guarantee you if you manage to sneak the gold medal on board and bring it down to Hobart, you'll definitely open some doors down here because we're impressed by Olympic gold medals, Tom. So it will work for you down here. So there you go.

TOM BURTON: I'll try and sneak it in.

BEN WATERWORTH: Well, we appreciate your time, mate, here on the show. Best of luck with everything. We'll be obviously keeping an eye on everything, how it goes between now and Tokyo and everything else that happens in your career. And yeah, we wish you the best of luck, and thank you for joining us on the program today.

TOM BURTON: Cheers, not worried.

BEN WATERWORTH: Another great chat there, Tom Burton, Olympic gold medallist, and we wish him all the best. Hope to see him again in Tokyo to make it three in a row for Australia in the laser category. If you're enjoying these interviews, and I know you are, you can of course subscribe to us on iTunes to get more interviews, direct to your podcasting device, whatever that may be, and of course like us on Facebook to stay up to date with what's going on. Perhaps you've got an interview suggestion, maybe there's somebody you'd like us to track down, you've got a question, perhaps for one of our Olympic guests on the program, or just want to send us some feedback. You can of course do that on iTunes by rating us and liking us and leaving some words of encouragement or discouragement, whatever really floats your boat. That's it for this interview today. Thank you very much again for Tom for joining us, and we thank you for listening to us here on Off The Podium, and we will speak to you next time wherever you are listening to us from.