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Gemma Howell Interview

Jan 11, 2022
55 min read

It's time for us to bring you your very first taste of Judo and your very first taste of Britain as we speak to two-time British judoka Gemma Howell about her amazing career and her amazing sport! We find out from Gemma how her math teacher father got her involved in the sport and what it was that made her fell in love with it. We also learn about the experience of qualifying for her first Olympics being at home and the experience of being a British athlete during the London Olympics. Added to this we learn more about her love of TGI Friday's and the movie 'White Chicks', as well as just why you might not want to let your children near any dog she owns. It's a fun chat that you won't want to miss, so get to listening!




EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Please note this is an automated transcript that may contain errors.



BEN WATERWORTH: It is Off The Podium, an Olympics Podcast coming to you today. For another interview episode, an exciting one today, we're ticking off another sport off the list. Our first ever athlete from the sport of judo. That is right, we have never talked to somebody from judo when we are doing that today. And our very first ever British Olympian as well. We are speaking to Gemma Howell, two-time Olympian from London and Tokyo. And fascinating chat here from Gemma, learning about how she got into the sport, her Olympic journey, her battle with many, many injuries over her career. And some other interesting, we learned a little bit more about judo itself. If you remember back in our Rio coverage, Jarrod and I debating about what the heck was going on when we were watching judo. You remember Uchi Madas? Well, you're gonna learn a little bit more about what that is. And Ipon, everything else in between. So all the interesting ways that you can win a judo bout. And fascinating chat here with Gemma, learning a little bit more about her and the sport. So here is our chat with two-time Olympian Gemma Howell.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: It's always exciting on Off The Podium when we can talk to an athlete from a sport that we have never spoken about on the show before, and also an athlete from a country that we've never had an athlete on before. I can't believe it. It's taken us this long to have a British athlete on the show, and it's happening today. And also a judo athlete, two-time Olympian, competed in London and in Tokyo. And I'm so excited to be able to learn more about her Olympic journey and the sport of judo. It's a pleasure to welcome to Off The Podium Gemma Howell. Gemma, first of all, welcome to Off The Podium. It's a pleasure to have you on the show today.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Hello, thank you for having me on the show.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: It's exciting to tick off boxes. I'm a collector. I like to kind of go through lists and tick things off. So it's great to get another sport off the thing. But I'm ashamed to think that it's taken us this long to get somebody from Britain on the show, Gemma. I apologise. We've had people from Switzerland. We've had people from Belgium. We haven't had a Brit on yet. What's going on here? Why has it taken us so long?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: No idea, but yes, glad to be representing Great Britain.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: That's good. That's what we like to hear. It's always good to hear from the mother country here down in Australia, right? We've got to kind of make sure we look up there, but I'd always like to find out from our guests getting involved in the sport. How do you end up as a two-time Olympian in judo, Gemma? Sort of when you were younger, what was it about judo that kind of tickled your fancy?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: When I was eight years old, my dad took me to the local club, Wolverhampton, because there was lots of people that trained there that went to his school, so he's a maths teacher. And one of the athletes from there actually went on to be a world champion, so he knew it was obviously a successful judo club. So he took me along, and I've never stopped going since.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Wow, were you involved in many other sports sort of growing up as well, or was this kind of your first real sport that you sort of got involved in?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: I think I was one of those active athletes and one of those active kids that liked to get involved in everything. So I did every after school club, I did cross country, even though I hated it. Did swimming on the weekends, and I did gymnastics, which I was dreadful at. And so I think judo was the first one that I kind of really took to. I had to kind of at one point choose between, well, with every sport basically, choose between judo and gymnastics, because Friday night training was on, so I had to miss that. And swimming was on the weekend. So it was competitions for judo or training for swimming. And so obviously there was always a choice, and judo just always came first.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: And what was it particularly about judo that I guess really kind of, you know, whet your appetite for competition? What was it that drew you to that over, gymnastics and swimming?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: I think, well, I definitely don't really have coordination for gymnastics, but the gymnastics set me up good for judo, because it helped me in a bit stronger and having good flexibility. But I just love fighting, I think. I think, obviously, it's a fighting sport, it's a comeback sport. So yeah, I just like, I miss fighting when I can't fight, like if I'm injured. So yeah, I just love fighting. And then obviously, it's like, you get to travel the world with your friends, and there's a massive social aspect of it. Most of my best friends have come through judo. So yeah, there's just so many positives to the sport.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: And was it a case of, you can get aggression out as well? You're saying you like fighting, right? So it's kind of any excuse to kind of be able to throw some people around and get a bit physical, isn't it?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, that's true. That's for sure. Obviously you have to control it when you're on the mat. And to fight.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: What is the judo scene like in the UK? Maybe particularly when you got started, was it sort of a high participation sport? Were there many sort of juniors getting involved in judo?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: I think it's obviously not one of the most popular sports in the country. So you do have to like travel. But I mean, I was really lucky because the judo club that I went to was a very successful judo club. So there was lots of people for me to fight. But even like now, we have to travel aboard a lot for training camps to try and get to fight different bodies from all over the world.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: In terms of when you're sort of progressing through the junior ranks, you know, going, progressing up the ladder essentially as you're growing up, kind of what were some of the more challenging aspects? Was it what you're saying there sort of, was it the travel kind of, you know, was it anything else that you found sort of challenging as you were progressing through the sport?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Not so much earlier on, but like later on in my career, I've suffered a lot of injuries, I've been very unlucky, I think. So obviously that definitely overcoming injuries and going back to the bottom and starting all over again and building your way up has been really difficult. When I was younger, I don't know, maybe like a lot of judo people drop out about 15, 16, when they finish cadets and progress on to juniors. So I guess that's when it kind of takes up a lot more of your life, so you've got to make that commitment. But I mean, it's never been a question, like I've always just, judo's kind of come before everything basically for me. I think my parents have helped to do that. So like, for example, if it was a sleepover on a judo training night and I wanted to go on the sleepover, my dad was like, well, if you go to the sleepover, I'm not taking you to the competition at the weekend. So I think they definitely helped me stay on track.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Simple little moments like that kind of help you along the way. Was it something when you were younger then that an Olympics was a dream or does that sort of come later when you're, you are progressing through the ranks in judo?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: No, definitely. I think obviously, you know, when you start judo it's an Olympic sport. So from a very young age, I remember standing up in a school assembly and saying my dream is to win the Olympics. So I think that's always been there. So obviously, didn't quite, haven't quite managed that dream yet, but just to get to, obviously, an Olympics is still achieving a childhood dream.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Now, explain something to me and our listeners, for those of us who maybe are not overly familiar with the sport. I believe in order to get to a certain level, you have to get your Dan. Now, can you explain what that actually is and what do you do to achieve that?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: So Dan grade is a black belt. I'm not very clear to Polly's actually, to be honest. I think before Dan grades, it's Q grades, and then you get like a stripe on your black belt, and then two stripes will be two second Dan. And then after maybe fifth Dan and above, you go from a black belt to a red and white belt, and then the white slowly gets less and the red gets more if you go on to sixth Dan, seventh Dan. So eventually, I don't actually know what the top Dan is, is a full red belt, but you get that from repaying back your sport, and that takes a very long time. I think you have to be very, very, very old to get a red belt. But you can compete for your black belt, so you have to do theory, and that's the bit I'm not very good at. So my club was very much the competition side, whereas I think some clubs tend to go down more of the theory route, but wasn't really interested in that. And then over recent years, some people have said to me, whilst you're still doing competitive judo, you need to try and get your dan grades, just because obviously when you finish judo, it would be nice to say you've got them, whereas I would have just carried on with the first dan forever. So I have now, because of that, got my third dan.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Wow, so theory, what are you having to study? What aspects do you have to add to the physical element of judo?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: So obviously judo is originated in Japan, so all the throws are in Japanese, and all like the turnovers and the hold downs. So you basically have to be able to speak Japanese. You need to know what all the throws mean. If someone says, do this throw, can you do this throw? And then as the dan's progress, actually, you have to be able to do kata as well, which is like a sequence of throws, kind of like a dance routine for judo.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Wow, jeez, I didn't realise it. There's kind of theory elements to certain sports to kind of help progress it there. So that's incredible.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, not really my... I don't really like to do that part of it, so that's kind of just doing it for the box, so I've got the dan.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: So when you get the dan, does that allow you to go into further competitions? So like, you can't go to an Olympics, for example, without a dan, or is it kind of a little bit simple in that you get a dan and then you can just go regional and then it just... you keep making your way up?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: No, I think you have to be about to enter a lot of like the higher level competitions internationally. I remember 16 and I think I'd like the same attitude again. I'd have been the brown belt forever if like nobody pushed me. And I think my coach said to enter the World Cup because that was a senior competition, I needed to get my black belt. So it was the case of one night at judo, one of the coaches sat down and tried to teach me on my theory. So the next day I could pass the test and get my black belt.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: And what's that feeling like then when you eventually do pass that and then you realise you're eligible to go to World Cups and things along those lines?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: I think at the time, you kind of know what level you're at anyway, so the downgrade is just kind of there. You're more proud or it's more of an accomplishment to get to the competitions as opposed to get the downgrade to go with it.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: It's kind of like you know you can drive, so when you get your driving test, it's like, okay, well, thankfully I finally got it now, so now I can just pick up my friends and go down, you know, out for the evening, basically.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, except I was definitely very happy when I passed my driving test, so I was definitely happy when I got my downgrade.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: When it comes to the physical, I mean, obviously any combat sport is incredibly physical, but when you're training sort of outside of just bouts with other competitors, when it comes to the gym, is it a very upper body style sport? What are you focusing on when it comes to the throws and everything involved? Is there agility aspect to it too, I can imagine, as well as combining everything really?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, definitely. That's why I love judo, I think, because you're never stuck just working on one thing at a time. And it also means you can be the strongest person in the world, but it doesn't mean you're going to win because you've got tactical aspects, technical aspects, like there's so much to it that can contribute to you winning. So for example, you've got to work on your coordination, your agility, your strength, and I'd say it's a full body fighting sport basically, which is unfortunate because I hate the rowers. Obviously, rowers are good fitness for full body. So we have to do a lot of rowing. And yet in the gym, we just work on everything. And whether kind of depending on where you sit in your weight category. So I was just fighting at 70 kilos and I was quite light for 70s. So in the gym, I've been doing hypertrophy and trying to put weight on. But now I'm moving down. My program has completely changed. And it's kind of I'm now too heavy for this weight category. I need to lose muscle. So we're doing a lot of a different, completely different program basically.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Because you initially were the 63 kilo, right? So you went up and so now you're going back down. Is that common amongst judokas to kind of do that?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: I've been everywhere. So I originally I was 57 when I started my senior career. Then I went to 63s just before the London Olympics because I snapped my ACL and the performance director at the time made me move up, which I didn't want to do. And then, I mean, I was very, very skinny at 57. So that was probably a sensible move. And then I got moved up during another MCL reconstruction during another injury. Again, I didn't want to. The coach at the time thought it was the right thing. I'm still not sure about that. But so that's why I moved up to 70s. But then I like eating, so I didn't mind it too much. And now I've got a different coach again. And obviously, we're starting a new cycle. So he said, well, I think you'd be better at 60 frees, because I mean, I am very short for 70s. So 60 frees is probably much better suited for me. And it means I'll be able to be at the top of my weight. Because a lot of when I was fighting in 70s, a lot of the girls come stepping on the mat for the competition. I'll probably be 75, 74 kilos, and I'm still 70 kilos. So it's obviously giving a bit away. Whereas at 60 frees, I'll be one of the heavier ones. So yeah, that was my last coach's decision. And I thought, last cycle, let's go hard or go home.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Because I can imagine judo is one of those sports where a five kilo difference can really make a difference when it comes to the throwing aspect. If you're 75 kilos and you've got somebody who's 70, I mean, on paper, it's gonna be easier for her to pick you up and throw you than it is for you to pick her up and throw her.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, I think I definitely noticed that on training camps. So obviously on a training camp, someone that might have to weigh 70 kilos at a competition, obviously there's no way in a training camp, so they might be 75 and you can really feel the difference.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: And do you, when it comes to then practice, do you want to go up against some girls and like ask the coach, like, hey, get me a 75 kilo girl so I can practise that because I'm going to come up against them at the Olympics, so you can really kind of prepare for people like that?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: I think, unfortunately, we're not that lucky in this country with the amount of people that do judo. So obviously, with the pandemic before the Olympics, we were restricted to our bubbles. And I mean, we were very lucky that we do have quite a good, strong group of girls at the centre, but it wouldn't normally be like you pick someone for their size, where you'd want someone about your size, but it's more you want practice against the left-hander, you want to practise against the right-hander, you want to practise against this particular grip or this particular throw. So that's more what you target your training at.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: I want to clarify a few things here, Gemma, when it comes to the sport. I remember back when we first started, way back in Rio, and there was an episode we did where we had watched a lot of judo, and we were trying to work out what the heck was going on. And I think I remember there was a... And again, I'm going to butcher this. Please correct me. Whatever I say here, I think it was called an Uchi Mata or something along those lines. And then there was all these... That was good? That was all right? Cool. Good. I remember that. But then there was other terms and everything. How many ways are there to win a judo bout? And is an Uchi Mata a good thing, a bad thing? If you're doing that, is that something that you want to get?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: So an Uchi Mata is a nice throw, if you get it right. It's not one of mine. So every judo player has their own throw repertoire that they like to use. So you can throw someone, and you can either throw them flat on their back and get an Ippon, which is an immediate win. Or you can throw a soft flat on their back or throw them on their side. And that's a Wazari, which is basically two of them becomes an Ippon and then you win. Or you can hold someone down for 20 seconds. Or you can shangle someone and they tap out. Or you can armlock someone and they tap out. But there's also, you can win from Shido. So if you get your partner or if your partner gets three penalties, then you can win that way. But I think the rules of Judo change all the time. So some competitions, I don't even know what the rules are. So I'm like, if I don't know what the rules are, how do the people at home that aren't really sure about Judo go, man?

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Judo is very similar in Australia, as it is in the UK, it's obviously not really a very big sport. It is a sport that really only kind of ever gets some form of attention when an Olympics are on. And it's just, they're the sports that I really do love watching, because sure, swimming is great, athletics is great, like these sports are fantastic. There's a reason why we enjoy watching them, but I want to see these sports that I never get to see. And I just, I remember during Rio when I watched it, I didn't, I don't think I watched as much Judo during Tokyo as I did in Rio, but it's just hearing these terms, and then you kind of see something happening, and you got these great commentators who are doing their best to explain it. And then you got poor old Australian guy sitting on his couch going, so there's that, but then they did that, and then they did that. So it's kind of, yeah, I don't know how you make that appeal to the kids sometimes when it comes to an infographic on screen. This is what you do when it comes to Judo.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, well that, especially, I don't know if I should say this, admit this, but I'm sure like sometimes one rule on one mat is different at the same competition as like one decision on one mat will go differently on a different mat. So it's like, well, this is right on this mat, but actually this is right on this mat. Which one should I be doing? Like I don't know. And obviously, because that's the main thing because they want you to do positive Judo and throw in Judo. But sometimes when it's so close, the penalties can make the difference. And that's where there's like a bit of a grey area. So it kind of can change. And yeah, it's difficult to follow.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: So the Ypon is essentially the Judo version of a knockout in boxing. So if you get one of them, boom. And I mean, imagine that's an amazing feeling when you kind of get that. And it's like, wow, wicked, you know, that's what we want to achieve.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: The Ypon is the one that you want. And obviously, if that's a medal fight or if that's as the competition goes on, you're getting closer to a medal. That feeling just gets better and better.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: And how many of them could you say, Gemma, you've achieved in your career? Would you have a rough guess?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: How many Ypons?

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: I could not tell you. I don't even think I can guess at that. I'm 31 and I started judo at 8, so I've been doing judo for a very long time.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: It's not like one of these things with boxes where, you know, they'll say like, oh, we're 32 and one, including, you know, seven knockouts. It's not something you kind of tally along your career when it comes to bouts.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: No, I think we fight way too often to be able to do that. I mean, obviously, there's a few, there's a very few number of judo players on the world circuit that you could be like, they haven't lost the fight in this many competitions, which they are like Teddy Reiner in France kind of thing. And that's not very heard of in judo because you can literally beat someone one day. And the next time you fight, they can beat you. They're so close and there's so many different variables. But yeah, like you're very amazing if you're one of those people.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: When you're progressing up and the Olympics sort of become a possibility, you would have been, if my calculations are correct here, Gemma, 15 in 2005 when London gets the Olympics. Do you set yourself goal even more now, knowing that that's a home Olympics you could achieve? Or was even Beijing a possibility for you at sort of a young age?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: No, I don't think Beijing was ever a possibility. I remember I was a training partner, like just went to the preparation camp for Sarah Clark, who was competing in Beijing at the time, and I was just really grateful and felt amazing that I was even asked to be doing that. So that was like good experience for me. And then the London Olympics, obviously everybody wants to compete in a home game. So yeah, there's just the excitement around it and just the excitement that my family felt. I think that was what was so good about the home games that everybody in this country could get involved. Obviously the time zone was right. Everyone could just come and support you and watch you. And there was like the torch relay. So just the build up was really good. But the lead up for me was quite stressful because I was originally going for London at 57s. And then I snapped my ACL less than a year before the Olympics, which obviously that was devastating. And yeah, that was really rough and obviously having to try and get my head around it. And the fact that I couldn't even try and, like I couldn't even enter the competitions to try and make sure I was secure in my place. I just had to, in a horrible way possible, hope that the other people in my country didn't win because it was all out of my control. And then during that time, somebody else moved down the weight category, Sarah Clark actually. So then I couldn't then do anything about that. So I got told I had to move up a weight category. And it was basically, you need to win your competition when you get back because the winner will be going. So that was a lot of pressure on a competition after, however long out, however many months out, I had recovered from an ACL. But I did it. So that was very, very good feeling because obviously that was very difficult.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: And how close was that to the actual Olympics, that competition?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: So that was the British Open, which at the time was very hard. I remember I had like a Grand Slam winner to overcome just to get to the final. So like the level is lower, but there was like the odd fight that was very close fight. So yeah, I don't know, I just was very over the moon when I won that one.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: And had you been in any other sort of practice tournaments beforehand, or was that basically your first tournament back since your injury?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: So basically because I didn't want to have that as my first one, I fought the week before in a Grand Prix. I can't remember, maybe it was Turkey or something, which my physio was very against, because the British Open was already much sooner than he was happy with me competing. And I said, but I don't want the most important competition of my life at the time to be my first one back. So I did the Turkey. I didn't fight very well. I got a bronze medal, so I didn't fight my best. But I think it's almost like you need to push off the cobwebs. So I was happy that I brushed off the cobwebs at Turkey, because when it came to the British Open, which was the one that I needed to win, that wasn't my first one back. I was ready to go.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: That's insane. And how, then, is the ACL at that point? Are you fully healed? Is it at, say, 80% or something like that, when you can get to that level where you can actually compete again?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: I do know. So when I fought at the Olympics, I had no knee problems whatsoever. But then for two years after that, I had an ongoing, like, my knee would lock, my knee would give way. It was, I basically just called it like a messy knee because no physio could tell what was wrong. And then eventually, I mean, I had MRI scans, and it came back that it was nothing wrong. And at this point, this was like two years post it, my knee was locking. I was like, well, it's definitely not in my head now because my knee is physically locking. Someone has to unpop it, and you can hear the clunk of like something moving. And then finally, the British judo doctor, who's also, we're very lucky to have her, she's a surgeon, looked at the scan and said, well, actually, no, you need an MCL reconstruction, and you've got a very bad cartilage tear. But I mean, I was getting to the point where I was wanting to finish judo because people were saying it was in my head. And I was like, it's not in my head and my knee gives way. So that was, I was really grateful. But obviously, I do wonder if that injury all stemmed from the ACL, which happened before the Olympics. But I still think the home games was the one, was so worth it because obviously that's, that's Olympics doesn't come around very often. So I was very grateful for that.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: So do you feel if, say, those Olympics weren't in London, if they were in another location, that maybe it would have been a case of thinking more long term and maybe I'll miss these ones and go for the next one? Was it the fact that it was a home Olympics that really pushed you to go to those games?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: No, I think I probably would have done that for any Olympics if I'm honest. I think the Olympics is the epitome of every judo person's journey. So I think, yeah, I would have, you kind of put plasters and take yourself all together and go on with anything, I think. But no, obviously the home games has made it that extra bit more special.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: I always love hearing from our guests in terms of the Olympic experience outside of the competition aspect. So how was it, things like the village, if you got to do the opening ceremony, closing ceremonies, things like that. And again, being a home games, I can imagine it's, you know, tenfold, a little bit more so there with the attention that you probably got just from wearing Team GB on your uniform and walking the streets and places like that.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, definitely. Obviously everyone was just so excited about it. The whole country there was just like a buzz, which just gives you that extra uplift. And obviously like the crowd, there was a lot of British people there when you're fighting, so it all helps. But yeah, you just walk down the street and obviously everybody was just proud to, excited to be able to meet you. So that was really nice. And I just think for me how much excitement it brought to my family and my friends. Like, you just can't beat that. I mean, my family are my biggest fans or whatever. But I remember, this is often a tangent, a random story, but obviously, I lost my first fight to the world champion at the time, which is rubbish, but that meant I was out. So then obviously, I needed to go to TGI Fridays and drown my sorrows. So my family could sell their tickets, but I can't remember. I didn't really get involved in the tickets, but I know you weren't just allowed to sell tickets. There was, I don't know, there was obviously strict rules, so they didn't kind of get out of hand. So my sister's walking around with a banner saying, tickets for sale. And then she'd just given them to my uncle. I think her arms were getting tired as the police came over and said, you can't be doing that. So then I think they had to go into some like off, offside pub and do some like dodgy dealings to sell the tickets. But I think everything about it, they just loved it.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: That's, that's crazy. I love hearing stories like that. Is that kind of like the allocated tickets your family got or they had already pre-purchased tickets to events?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: I think I got maybe two tickets. So then they'd all have to obviously go on the ballots and purchase tickets that way.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Kind of go that way. Did you get to do the opening and closing? Because I mean, to me, I mean, we're in a bit of a period right now. I feel that the Olympics or the opening ceremonies haven't been that great. And I constantly said in the show, we haven't had a good opening ceremony since London. That to me is probably the best opening ceremony I ever saw.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, well, so Tokyo, we weren't allowed a sport. Our coaches decided that we weren't allowed to go. But London, yes, we went. And obviously, it was just absolutely insane. But I do remember I got a bit of firework in my eye.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Oh, wow.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Because then I was kind of like couldn't see for the whole second half of it. So then I was kind of waiting for it to finish. I could run to the doctor and get it out of my eye. But obviously, the closing ceremony was literally insane because there wasn't the pressure of competing then. Everyone was relaxed, celebrating, whatever. Yeah, and the Spice Girls reunion, literally. That's what I remember from it when they came out. Yeah, just everything about it. Everyone was just on cloud nine.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: It was just, yeah, I remember them vividly, I think. I mean, I actually, I bought the soundtrack, I remember, for the London Olympics. And there's tracks on that to this day that I just still absolutely love. And I remember back during the Sydney Olympics, you know, buying the soundtrack for that too and listening to it as well. But there's just something about that London opening ceremony that has always stuck with me. And yeah, Rio wasn't brilliant. Tokyo wasn't brilliant. So we're hoping that the French can maybe bring back that European flair. Maybe it's just a European thing that we're missing. That's why the opening ceremonies have been that good for a while.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: I did see one of my coaches with the flag bearer at Sydney. I feel like she was. She was one of them anyway. But I have heard lots of good stories about the Sydney Olympics.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah, very proud. I was only very young, but similar to what you were saying, obviously the whole country kind of gets... I mean, Australia was just absolutely wrapped up in Olympic mania. I remember in 2000, and it was insane. And obviously we're lucky enough now, 11 years time, we're going to have another one. So it's going to be interesting to see how Brisbane goes then and sort of see how it all plays along. You mentioned, obviously, you go out in the first round to the world champion. I mean, if you're going to go out to anyone, I feel you either want to go out to the world champion or the person who's going to go on to win the Olympic gold. But did you set yourself a target? Like when you went into that, did you go, okay, I want to get to a certain point, I want a medal. Like, did you have a goal in mind when you did compete?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, so obviously, I enter any competition to win it. I don't see the point in entering it if you're not going to try and win it. But I was jabs at the time, the coach that told me my draw, because obviously, that could have been quite a horrible moment, opening your draw and thinking, great, world champion first fight. But somehow he managed to convince me that that was a good thing, because she's also been world champion in the weight above. So she obviously had to cut weight for 63. So he said, you want to fight her, because back then it was morning weigh-in. Now it's night before, but back then it was morning weigh-in. So he said the best time to fight her is first, because that's when she'll have just been cutting hard and she won't have had time to put on as much weight yet. And he said, if you want to win it, you've got to beat everyone anyway. So beating her first fight would be the best time. So in my head, I was like, yes, I've got a good draw. I've got the world champion first fight. But no, definitely wanted to win it. And so obviously I remember when I lost that fight, it was like the end of the world, because everything was about trying to win the Olympics up until that point. I had not planned for what happened if I didn't win the Olympics, because in my head, I was going to win the Olympics. So yeah, that was obviously devastating. And then kind of needed a holiday as a family to get over that.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: What was on the menu at TGI Fridays when you went there? Was it just like, fucking give me everything, just load up the table?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yes, probably. It definitely would have had a Jack Daniels tower, an Oreo cookie milk, and a cheeseburger on there. Not sure what else.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: This is where I think it would be great to compete in a weight based sport when you go up a weight, because then it's like, right, OK, then let's go crazy.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, well, that was kind of what I was a bit like at 70s. I had to eat a lot to stay at the weight, which is unusual in a weight-breaking sport. So yeah, as much as I wasn't happy about the move at the 70s, I can't complain because I definitely had a very good few years eating.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Well, after the Olympics, I mean, speaking of a few good years, obviously sort of moving forward a little bit when it comes to your success in on the World Cup stage and eventually sort of in the European Championships. I mean, multiple medals in all different events. Was it just a case of that you peak at a different age in judo? Were you just sort of training a little bit more? Did the 70 kilos suit you better? What sort of brought about that where you were able to go up the ranks and bring home a lot of medals from these events?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, I think that's where obviously one coach should say 70 suited me more. I'm not sure because it's like, well, who's to say I wouldn't have got the medals if I'd stayed in 63? So I'll never know that. But I think with judo, there's not really a particular age that people peak at because if you look at British history, a lot of our good medals have come from people like 30 or late 20s, early 30s, which obviously for some sports, I mean, gymnastics, they'll have retired 10 years since then, like, they get to that age. And I mean, there's still people on the world circuit getting medals at 40, I think, which is very rare, but it can happen. And then you get some of the Japanese female fighters are getting medals, like ridiculously young ages. So there's such a wide range, I think. And that's where I think like it's so hard to stay at the top. And obviously it does happen, and they're incredible athletes for so long. You often get a lot of like, especially when I was in 70 kilos, it's like every competition, the person that was winning was different. It was so open and it just was all about having a bit of look on your day and things going right on your day. And that's what keeps judo interesting, I think. You never know who's gonna win.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: And does that make it then when you're so used to fighting these girls in different competitions that you'll line up, you'll get your draw, and you go, ah, her. I hate her. I really want to go. I've got extra motivation to beat her. Like just, oh, no, not, oh, come on. Bring it on. I just want to throw her down. I want to, I want to ip on her to death, basically.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, obviously, there's definitely certain styles of fighters that you'd rather have. So that does happen. But I kind of feel like you can beat anyone. You can lose to anyone at the end of the day. You can make a mistake. So I just think whoever you're going to throw at me, I'll try and deal with them. But definitely some fights you would rather have than other fights.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: When it comes to those styles, sort of, what's your style, Gemma? And does that come down to, say, in a lot of combat sports, where you're more of an attacker, more of a defender? Or is that different in judo? Your sort of styles don't necessarily work based on attack and defence.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Less like that, but I guess some fighters would be more defensive. For example, my fight at Tokyo Olympics, we were both kind of quite a bit defensive because we fought each other so many times now. So it's not the most exciting fight to watch, whereas you'll get some fighters that, like some fights will literally be like attack after attack after attack. But then they're not always strong attacks, so it's kind of literally you can pair two people up, and it's just their styles. They just don't make the most interesting fight, whereas you can pair that person up with another person, and it's a really close, like, kind of, ooh, who's going to win kind of fight.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Is there sledging in judo? Like, do you kind of have a few nice little words to put your competitor off on the mat or bumping him into the locker room beforehand? Like, you know, is much of that going on?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: No, I'd say judo is actually quite a respectful sport, I think. And so you'll want to kill each other on the mat. And then off the mat, you might often speak quite friendly to some of your competitors. I mean, we have to fight a lot on training camps, so it wouldn't get down very well if I said something. I think I'd get disqualified or penalty anyway on the mat if I did do that. But really, it's not very nice at the competition. And they probably wouldn't want to fight me in a training camp.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: So it's actually open. So if you actually just call your competitor a bitch or something like that, you can actually kind of get disqualified.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: I would think so. I don't think I've ever seen it happen, but I'm pretty sure that probably would be why.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Gee, wow, that's crazy.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: It's meant to be respectful. Obviously, at the end of the fight, you shake hands and you can give each other a hug or whatever. You're not meant to have done that after COVID, but I think people still did. But yeah, no, it is a very... Obviously, you get the dirty players that, for example, might give you the odd knee or whatever, and if the referee can't see it. But it is a penalty, I think, to discourage that. So it doesn't really happen very often. And most of the time it is, you want to beat someone fairly. And then, yeah, you kind of shake hands, and it's all hunky dory when you come off of that.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Obviously, between London and Tokyo, there was Rio in 2016. Was that on the cards, Gemma? Was it sort of a case of not qualifying injuries? Kind of what happened around the Rio Olympics?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, I definitely wanted to go. I was extra unlucky, I think, in that cycle with injuries. So like I said before, I had two years trying to diagnose an injury that I potentially had like from two years ago. So I was kind of in and out of competitions because it would be like, okay, we don't know what's wrong, fight. And then, oh, actually, your knees shouldn't be locking. Don't fight. So it's kind of like stop start. For two years, I didn't really compete very much. And then after that, I had two stress factors in my back, so I wasn't allowed to do any judo for three months then. And then also the year just before, or I think the start of the year of the Games. So I got to the final of a Grand Prix and snapped my MCL in that, which then meant I missed another couple of competitions. I think I got concussion at one point, which made me miss another competition. So those four years are definitely not the best four years trying to qualify. And then another girl, so she previously competed at the Olympics for Israel, and then she got approved by Britain, and then she ended up going in my weight category. So yeah, I was obviously very disappointed, and I remember, but straight away, when I realised I wasn't going to be going to New York and Texas. So I saw a friend in Texas, and just tried to, as sad as it sounds, not watch the Olympics, because obviously I wanted to be there. I didn't want to watch other people where I wanted to be.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: I have to say, if you're going to go anywhere, those two places are pretty good places to go though, right? Like, you know, a few good TGI Friday spots in both New York and Texas as well.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: So yeah, no, that was very good distraction.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Which, with any disappointment though, comes, I guess, a spur on to move to the next cycle, I can imagine. I mean, do you take that disappointment, sort of those injury setbacks that really have dogged your career and just kind of all bottle it up for that mental side of things to go, okay, well, this has been shit, but I can use that and then I can push towards getting back to the Olympics in what, at that point, was only four years' time?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, definitely. Obviously, you try and find, like, new motivation. So then as soon as, like, that cycle is kind of brushed out the way, it's a new cycle, it's a new goal, and it's kind of like reset, let's go again. And so, yeah, and also, I mean, the cycle Rio where I didn't go, I was at uni, and I found it really challenging doing full-time judo and full-time uni. And I do say, if I'd not had all those injuries, I probably wouldn't have passed my degree. So, like, obviously, not having to go away as often did help. I mean, I still was trying to revise in between weigh-in and competition, and it was a busy time, but, like, there was a silver lining to not going to Rio. I think that was... managed to pass my uni.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Well, in between Rio and Tokyo, bronze medal at the European Championships in 2018, how was that to kind of medal on such a large stage at the European Championships?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: That's definitely my favourite medal. That one meant the most to me of all of my medals, I think, just because I remember missing my last year of juniors, so I couldn't do the Junior European Championships or World Championships because I snapped my ACL. And at the time, that was all I lived for. That was the dream, that was what I wanted to do, and the fact that my life had been taken away from me. And everyone said to me, it's about the bigger picture, seniors is the bigger picture. If you get a senior medal, you won't even remember your junior medal. Obviously, that was really hard to believe. So from that moment, from snapping my ACL and missing my juniors, the dream had been to get on a senior podium, obviously, that level or above. So I think it took eight years, maybe, to that point. And in my head, it was like, well, actually, those juniors were the big picture, unless I got something better. So I finally got that medal. That was the bigger picture, the seniors. And so yeah, that was literally a dream come true. That had been a goal for a very, very, very long time. So that was a really good feeling.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: And then does that really spur you on towards Tokyo at that point, that not only get back on the Olympic team, but to actually push for, as you've been saying, sort of that dream to win the Olympics, and that this is now getting closer and closer to reality potentially?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, that definitely was like a mind changer for me, because at the time, like I said before, I didn't think I should have been 70 kilos. I thought that was the wrong weight for me. I didn't expect to be able to get a medal at that level. So that was the biggest thing. It was like, oh, actually, I can medal at this maybe. Because in my head, Sally Conway was in the weight category in 70 kilos, and she'd got a medal at Rio, and she was like winning at that level for a very long time. So it never even occurred to me that I would be able to go. I was just going to be number two to Sally. So I kind of set myself the target of trying to qualify, accepting that I won't go, but just getting into a qualification position. So then kind of getting that medal made me think, oh, actually, maybe I do have a chance of qualifying, and maybe there is a chance that I could even overtake Sally. Yeah, so that definitely gave me extra motivation.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: The road then to Tokyo, obviously, with the delay with COVID and everything, how did the qualification process work for you? Were you qualified before the delay, or did you have to qualify still once the gains were postponed in that delay period?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: So it was a bit of a roller coaster, like for anyone. So I was at this point number two to Sally just before lockdown happened. So, I mean, I've been number two for most of it. And like I said, I just set myself the target of getting into a qualifying position, but accepting that I won't be going above Sally. And then somehow I managed to win two Grand Prixs back to back, which made me overtake Sally on the Olympic ranking list. So then I was like, oh, maybe I actually could go. And that's the first time I think I thought, oh, I might be able to go to this Olympics. And then Sally got a world championship medal and overtook me again. So then at the point of lockdown, I really needed the competitions to overtake her, because obviously at this point, we didn't know that the Olympics were going to be postponed. So that was like to me, I was like, I'm now losing my chance of getting to the Olympics, and I'm not even getting to, obviously, I know, health and safety and family and everything comes first. But then a bit of me was like, I want to get my chance to at least try and give it everything. So then the Olympics postponing was a good thing, because then it meant I would have had some competitions when I got back. But then actually what happened, Sally retired. I found out in the January of this year, which I was in a good position, I think, on the Olympic ranking list. So at that point, I did think I would probably be qualified. Well, my coaches all said you're definitely qualified, but in my head until it was on paper and I was selected and going, I was not having it that I was qualified. And so Sally retirement was amazing, because then it meant it kind of took the pressure off this year, because I was already in a good position to go basically. So that was that was very not like happy for Sally, and she did the right thing for her and obviously very happy that she retired.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: So basically, when she retires, and do you know that, hey, I'm going to the Olympics or was there still kind of steps that you had to secure that spot on the team?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: So it's the top 18 on the Olympic ranking list that go. So I think at that point, I was quite higher. So my coaches all said, you're definitely going, no one can overtake you. But in the back of my mind, because it wasn't on paper yet, and the Olympic ranking list wasn't finished and finalised until after the World Championships, I just wanted to kind of have it that I wasn't going so that I didn't relax and like get too excited and then be disappointed again.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Because the World Championships were pretty close, weren't they, to Tokyo. And I'm guessing that's not a not a usual thing in a general cycle. I can imagine the World Championships are never really a few months out from an Olympic Games.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: No, never. So normally on an Olympic year, there isn't even a World Championships. I think because the World Championships was missed the year before due to COVID. That's why it was then the year after. But yeah, they were literally like a month before. And obviously that's massive qualification points as well. So literally was like could properly change the world ranking list quite a lot.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: That's that's crazy. I mean, on a positive side of that, though, is that kind of a case of you can build momentum, you can kind of, I mean, you no doubt competing against the same girls that you're going to be competing against in a month's time at the Olympics. So I mean, does it kind of help you in a in a weird way as well?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: And maybe I guess it's different for different people. I mean, Japan have got such a strong level that they were able to get a different person in the World Championships into a final of the and then a different person at the Olympics that won the Olympics. So I mean, they're pretty rare that that happens. Maybe French as well. French have got the depth to do that. But for me, so I fought the same person at the World Championships I did at the Olympics and I beat her at the World Championships and then I lost to her at the Olympics. So maybe having the same draw so close together worked against me kind of thing. Obviously, it was there was not really much in it, both the fights. But unfortunately, she got probably the better way around and got the win at the Olympics.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Now, if I'm not mistaken, I went to Golden Point. Is that what it's called in judo? Like, and how does it how does that kind of golden? So how does that work? Is that kind of just the tie breaking procedure? And then basically just at the end of whoever has the most points in that section, they go on essentially.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, so at Golden Score, that's when at full time, full minute fight is either equal score or no score. So then you go into Golden Score and then literally any score wins. So it could be an Ipon or a Rosary to get the win. And neither of us still got a score and it ended up going to penalties.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: There's penalties in judo. There's like a penalty shootout, essentially, some version of that.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Not quite like that. It's more like so some people, illegal grip or illegal moves, then you'll get penalised because obviously, otherwise someone could just be really defensive and have no intentions of throwing. But it means the other person also can't throw. So it's negative judo. So it's to try and discourage negative judo and encourage like better judo and throws.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Wow, which obviously it's not what you want to do when you go to the Olympics. You don't want to lose in the first round. You don't want to lose at all. But when, if you do lose, I mean, this is probably a really stupid question, Gemma, but bear with me. If you do lose, do you want to lose in that manner? Because you got so close that you did your best. You pushed it to the utter limit of possibility to win, if that makes sense.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: I definitely didn't see it like that when I lost at the time. I think a loss is a loss, and I was just devastated by whatever happened. I mean, it was quite a long fight, which means it was a lot longer for me to go over in my head. I did this, I could have done this, or I could have done this. So in that sense, not so good, because obviously I second guessed everything and wished I'd done it differently. But yeah, I suppose it's better going out closely than getting destroyed. And yeah, I wouldn't have liked that. And I definitely did say to my coach, did I embarrass myself? I didn't want to embarrass myself, because obviously everyone back home there was extra support to normal, people that wouldn't normally watch me at competitions or watch me at this competition. And yeah, I didn't want to embarrass myself, that's for sure.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: I can imagine too, obviously with no crowds, extra disappointing for Tokyo, I can imagine, because basically the home of judo, I mean, that would be an amazing atmosphere, I can imagine, had there been crowds. That would have been one of the probably the most well attended events.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, 100%. And I do feel very lucky that actually the two Olympics that I've gone to is obviously our home games and the home of judo. I think Paris, the next ones will be amazing because they're a very knowledgeable crowd. But I think just Tokyo itself, obviously, I mean, we've done lots of training camps there, so we've seen it, and I just love the culture and the food and everything. I really would have liked for the people that will come in to watch me to have got to experience the Japanese culture. But unfortunately, their flights got cancelled, and that didn't happen, and we didn't even get to go out and experience any of that either. But obviously, very grateful that the games got to go ahead, obviously, with all the extra precautions and everything. But no, it would have been amazing if obviously everyone could have come over. But I think at the time, actually, I didn't maybe notice... When you're in the fight, you're kind of in the zone, and I didn't really notice as much that the crowd was empty. It wasn't until I saw a picture, I think someone had took, and then I'm about to go out to fight, and the crowds obviously weren't there. And it was like, that's not normal for a judo competition. Obviously, it would have been completely different. I mean, we drove past the BMX track or something on the way to our training base. And again, I said, it's just really sad. You can see all the stands are meant to be full of really happy cheering people, and it's just empty, and it's like, it's really sad that that's happened. But equally, obviously, it's really good that we still got to have the games.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Which I could have meant, you know, completely different experience from London, where I'm sure in between sort of your events, you go to events where you can, and the crowds are obviously quite massive in London. So obviously, you couldn't really go to watch other events, could you?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, and yeah, and that was, obviously we had to be out of the village 48 hours after we competed in Tokyo, obviously with the COVID precautions and everything. So that was, yeah, a shame, because that was definitely like going to see sports that you wouldn't normally get to watch, and just being at an Olympics, watching it and being a spectator is just an amazing feeling, because obviously the atmosphere and everything that goes with it. So that was definitely something that we loved doing after London when we competed, and we did miss out on this time.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Were you able to somehow get to a TGI Fridays, or was there something else in the village that you were able to kind of like drown your sorrows with this time around?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: And no, unfortunately, we didn't get a... I don't know if I've been to a TGI in Tokyo, actually. That may be something I need to add to my bucket list. But no, I mean, the best part probably of the food in the village, obviously they have food from all around the world, but the Japanese section was always the busiest. So we kind of like the queue for the gyos is always massive. So we'd get one person in the queue for the gyos and they'd order like 20 gyos. And then another person, you feel like the sushi and they just order loads of sushi. We just share it around. So that was probably my favourite food in the village.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Make the most of sort of the weight right now that you're dropping down a category. So it's kind of like, all right, got to make the most of this. Coach won't like this in a couple of days.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Definitely did. I'm surprised I didn't turn into a gyoza.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: So is the goal then sort of in dropping the category now, is it Paris that that is the goal to be able to go to a third Olympics?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yes, that's the plan. So obviously I'm hoping still get like on the way, still get I would like to get a world medal. I don't have a world medal. There's other medals as a Commonwealth Games, obviously a home Commonwealth Games next year or so. But unfortunately, they're the same weekend as the World Championships.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: So obviously bad scheduling.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, so for judo, my coach has already said you need to be going to the World Championships. If you're looking for the Olympics. But obviously, another opportunity at home games would also be awesome, which I mean, that's that's fascinating.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Obviously, you know, the way the world sporting calendar has kind of changed because of COVID and everything. I know I think athletics World Championships are about two weeks out from the Commonwealth Games for next year. But it's interesting that they're able to just schedule them on the same same weekend. Would there be sort of many people from judo who would choose a Commonwealth Games over a World Championship?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: I did wonder that. And I'm not sure because I think if the if the aim is Paris, then the World Championships is worth so many points, you just wouldn't really even question it. And so I'm really not sure actually what other people, what other countries would do about that.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Because it's obviously, I mean, it's always a fascinating thing. I love talking about sort of with where a Commonwealth Games, I guess, ranks on kind of like the order of, you know, events that you would want to go to. But obviously, you know, you're the weighing up of being a home Commonwealth Games, but they have World Championship because it's the first time judo has been at the Commonwealth Games, I think, since Glasgow, isn't it? So it wasn't at the Gold Coast. So it's kind of that that opportunity. Did you we was Glasgow a possibility for you in 2014? In 2014, did you go to the Commonwealth Games at all?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: That was I didn't go because that was during my and really weird knee problems. And was I fighting? Was I not? So I wasn't even I think doing judo at that point. So it wasn't even a question whether I went. And but that Commonwealth Judo isn't the strongest in terms of internationally, like the countries aren't as strong as it would be, for example, at European Championships. And so I think it didn't really bother me too much until afterwards. And I realised how much people did enjoy it. And it was still in a games experience. So then I think that's made me want to maybe go to the next one a bit more.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: It's actually interesting just looking here because I mean, obviously the Commonwealth Games kind of fluctuate a little bit more in terms of how the sports work every single cycle. But Birmingham comes back after being at Glasgow in 2014. It wasn't at the Commonwealth Games until Manchester. Obviously, it's a UK thing. You guys love the judo and then the last time it was at the Commonwealth Games was back in Auckland in 1990. So Australia's had what? Two Commonwealth Games since 1990 and we've gone, we don't want judo at the Commonwealth Games. So it's a UK thing, Gemma.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah. So it's good that it's coming on this country. And obviously everyone is getting messages now like, what day will you be fighting or whatever? And it's like, I don't even know if I'll be there. I don't know where I'll be. So I don't want to. Yeah, I don't know. But it's still good that people, it's good for people to have something to be excited about.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: One thing, we'll get to some wrap up questions in just a moment here, Gemma, that we do with every interview. We had a couple of things. I always love it when we get somebody outside of Australia or Canada, sort of our two main countries on the show, to look at the overall medal tally of the athletes' country. So I'm looking at Great Britain's overall medal tally in the history of the Olympics. I'm looking at Judo here. Now I'm seeing here that 20 medals have been won at the Olympics by Britain at Judo. 12 of them bronze, 8 of them silver, 0 gold. This is the one sport that you've won the most medals at with never a gold medal. Are you going to be the first then come Paris to finally break this Judo drought that Britain seemed to have at the Olympics? No gold medals, but 20 medals, none of them gold.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, no, obviously that's everyone's dream, I think, to be the first gold medallist. And that's where... So we've had Paralympic gold medals, obviously. And Chris Skelly, who just got gold this time at the Paralympics, smashing it. But no, yes, obviously, that would be absolutely the best thing in the world to be the first gold medallist and finally end that drought of gold medals.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: That's absolutely insane to kind of look at this just overall tally to see that there have been 20 medals, none of them gold. I'm looking here that Britain have won a gold in ice hockey before, but never Judo. Now, if you were to put that at a pub trivia, I can guarantee you that nobody would say that Britain have won a gold in ice hockey before they've won a gold in Judo.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: I didn't know that either. I definitely wouldn't have got that wrong though, I guess. But if I didn't do Judo, I probably would have.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah, there you go. You can take that one. You can take that one out of there. Now, another thing I wanted to ask you about, Gemma, the movie White Chicks, how many times have you watched it in your life? I believe you're just a bit of a fan of this movie.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, I couldn't tell you how many times I watched it. If I'm being honest, I haven't watched it for maybe too long now. But I definitely, when I first watched it, I then had to watch it again with my mum, with my friend, with another friend. I made everybody that I know watch it.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: How often do you quote? Is it just a case of every day you're just going like, hold my poodle? Like you're just kind of saying things like that to people just to, you know, just quote the movie all the time when you can?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Not so much recently, but definitely any time I get a little bit merry, I have to have a thousand miles play and like, triple TK, a time to kick ass. I mean, that comes up sometimes.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Is that a judo thing? Can you do that in the middle of a bout?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: No, unfortunately, none of that in judo, again, with the whole respect thing that doesn't happen.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Oh, look, you know, I'm sure the Wayan brothers wouldn't mind you if you kind of did that out there at the Olympic Games, give a bit of exposure. Another thing, too, you've just gotten a dog, Gemma. Tell us about her. I want to learn more about your new puppy.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: She is definitely the best thing ever. She is currently being as noisy as possible and trying to get all noisy bones and squeaky Jews around me. But obviously, like I said, after London, there's the big low. So instead of it was kind of the opposite this time, it was like, oh, judo's over, yay, puppy time. Didn't really get the big low this time. So she definitely helps with that. She's Kiara, but aka Roxy too, because unfortunately, my first dog Roxy, who literally was my world. But she literally is, well, I'm kind of trying to make her the improved Roxy. So she doesn't knock over children, try not to let her pick nicks or all the things that my first one did. So working extra hard with this one. I didn't really know what I was doing last time. She was the best dog in the world, but the greediest, naughtiest dog in the world also. So I'm trying to knock over the best dog in the world that also is a little bit controlled.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah, knocking over children might not go down well with some people.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: It definitely didn't. It was happy. She thought she was playing whilst they're screaming and running away from her.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: I'm just picturing these terrified children running around with the happiest dog in the world bounding around. It was like, get away from the dog!

 

GEMMA HOWELL: It was literally that bad. Or like, I remember someone knocked at the door with a piece of toast in their hand and she'd just snatch it out of their hand. And I was like, I'm so sorry. Do you want me to make some toast? And she definitely would. Any picnics.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: What you say there, I'm actually just, who rocks up to your house with toast in their hand? It's not a food that I imagine you just walk up to you, you know, hey, how you going Gemma? Just don't mind me eating my morning toast.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: That was the neighbour, but yeah, they didn't have it anymore.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Wow, the things you learn. As I said, we've got a series of fun questions now, Gemma, to wrap up. These are a series of questions that were given to Canadian athletes ahead of the Rio and the Pyeongchang Olympics. Random fun goodness that I know we're going to learn a lot about you today. I'm going to start off with the greatest Olympian of all time to you is...

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Kelly Holmes.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: You don't need to. I think that's enough. Done. Like it. I think the first time you are the first Brit on the show, so I guess that makes sense to kind of keep it regional. But that's a good answer. I like it. The first Olympics you ever remember watching were?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Probably going to say Beijing. I don't really remember before that. So we were in a training camp. Yeah, when it was on the telly. Beijing.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Perfect. If I could be any superhero, well, if you could be any superhero, who would you be?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: That's a good question. I can't answer that one quickly. Hang on. I can't even think of one right now. So I'm just going to say Batwoman.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Batwoman. Hey, works. Great. Absolutely. Again, I don't think we've had Batwoman answered. More Batwoman in that question. I think that's a great answer. Your favourite ice cream flavour is?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Chocolate, but it could also be mint chocolate chip and cookie dough. So, oh, that's a hard one.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Too many. There's a triple scoop, triple scoop cone.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: I have to do that every time.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah, that's the easiest answer for that one. In a movie about your life, who would play you?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Thank you. Cameron Diaz, she's got a lot of energy, and she's filling in some fun and quirky.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: I could see it, yeah, absolutely. Are there any judo movies out there that we should know about?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: I'm sure there's like one, well, I mean, every movie, I'm always like, oh, Senagi, like, there's some judo brick going on in it. But I'm not sure if there's actually any judo. I know Ronda Rousey, who's obviously a judo Olympic champion, is in a film, I'm not even sure if he's even in that film. So I definitely need to see that film.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: There you go. Hey, just tick that off the list. If you weren't an athlete, what would you be?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: So I actually want to be a maths teacher, which is not connected.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Family business. So you said your dad was a maths teacher. So is that kind of where that follows from?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: My sister and my brother.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Wow, wow, really is a family business. I didn't realise that maths teachers often, you know, produce such a long line of future maths teachers.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, I'm not sure that's normal. Probably would normally put people off, but I don't know, not our family.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Wow, is that just because you all love numbers? Like are you just going around the dinner table every single night, just talking about numbers?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: They have definitely done that before, and I have had to leave the table because I can't do that.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: And not do that at the dinner table.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Wow, growing up, who is your favourite sporting team?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Everton. That's a family thing, didn't really have a choice in that. I haven't watched a game since Juno competition started, so it was a long time ago, but I really like the black and pink Angry Birds t-shirt, so I do have one of them, I have to admit.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Why wouldn't you? I was going to say, because I saw you trained at the Wolverhampton Club, I was going to say if you were a Wolves fan, my dad's a bit of a Wolves fan, so I was thinking there might have been a connection there.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: I've been to some of their matches when I was younger, but not for a long time. I actually was really lucky after London. I got to go on their pitch at half time one of the games. So now I do also like Wolves. And also the Wolves mascot at my 18th birthday party, because our family know the mascot at the time. And I used to watch Sweet 16 a lot. So my mum tried to make my 18th birthday party as good as Sweet 16 mum. So yeah, I had the Wolves mascot at my birthday party.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Okay. Why not? That works.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: He was doing the, with the blow up bouncer castle, like a salt course in the garden. Credit to him. That looked very difficult and hot in one of them, but he did that.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Who knew maths teachers' families had such great birthday parties? This is, maybe there needs to be more friends of maths teachers going forward.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Oh no, birthday parties were a big deal when we were growing up.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Sounds like it. I like this. The most recent TV show that you binge watched was?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: I just finished Money Heist.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Ah, right. What did you think of it?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: With the Dublin. Well, I had to watch it because my mum's books, like an escape room kind of thing, where we all have to wear the red jumpsuits and the face mask soon. So I was like, I need to finish it before I go. And I think it started slow first season, like my sister gave up on it already. But then I couldn't, like literally, I couldn't stop watching it. It'd be bedtime. And I'm like, yeah, but I need to know what happens now. And as that person died, like, oh, yeah, I got very.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: The best shows are those ones, aren't they? When you lose sleep basically over how you are watching it. Where is your favourite place in the world to compete?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: I thought you were going to say world full stop, and I was going to say Florida.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Give me both. Well, you give them Florida there. But what about, yeah, we'll talk about that in a second, competing as well.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Probably Miami maybe is up there. I just think America is just extra and just awesome. Everything that they do and the food obviously is just incredible.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah, which that is. I'm glad you say that because I am a huge sucker for American food and the regional based food there, like southern food in America is maybe just some of the just absolutely incredible. But yeah, can I just say this in the most politest way to American listeners, there's a reason why they're quite large because their food is amazing. And if I lived there, I would be eating it all the time too, let's be honest.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: How you get skinny Americans because like they're small is like our large. And I honestly, I did ask a judo player that before, like, how do you make weight? I don't understand because your food is too good.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah, yeah, which is it's crazy when I first went there and I discovered that too that you can like, they don't generally even have the sizes, do they? You just get a meal and it's like, here, just have like a jumbo cup. Everything is OK. Well, I didn't ask for, you know, the the meal to feed me for the next month. But thank you. Kind of works that way. Your favourite video game is?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Um, I'm currently haven't played a whole while Super Mario. Um, and also, surprisingly, I'm really into Fortnite.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Um, wow.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: I've got a lot down and then got a bit addicted. I'm still absolutely dreadful and my aim is terrible, but I really like it because it's good because you can kind of play. I can play with my sister who's in London whilst I'm in the Midlands. Like, I like that about it.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Kind of works. It's good with sort of those online connections when you can kind of have that, right? Just kind of, you know, porn off a few noobs and all that kind of stuff along the way. What is your biggest fear in life?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Um, spiders.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Spiders, right. Never come to Australia then, basically.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: That put me off, actually. And I think we're in spider season at the moment. I have a spider catcher.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: What is a spider in the UK, though? Can you give me a rough idea of the size of a spider that you're talking about there, Gemma? Do I laugh at this when you show me how big a spider is for you?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: You will, but to me, it would be a tarantula. So, like, we get, like, really big body ones. I mean, they're obviously, like, fake. I mean, I might be exaggerating, but no, like, when they've got the big hairy legs and they just look huge and horrible, like, they shouldn't be in my house.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Well, I won't, too, if I hold up my hand and say, I've seen ones bigger than that on my wall before, so, yeah.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: The spider catch is bigger than them.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: I shit myself and call my dad, basically. I'm terrified of them as well. When I was living in Canada, it was hilarious because somebody would be like, ah, spider! It's literally like the size of a coin. It's tiny, but that to them is a big spider. So I could be brave and like, hey, I'm going to kill this spider. Whereas here in Australia, I hear the words, ah, spider! I'm out the door.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, I would have gone on the first flight back home.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah, that's one thing I do not miss about being back here in Australia. If you were a baseball player, what would your walk up music be? I mean, can you do that in judo? Like when you're coming out, can you kind of have like a song that you're going out to to get yourself pumped up?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: No, but you do have headphones in before, like as soon as you get to the point where you do a kick check and they make you take them out, like you can have your headphones till then, which I like to do. I like to play like happy music, but probably the one that I had the longest, so the Shrek soundtrack, and I like to finish if I'm in the lead.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Oh, brilliant.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Good for me before I go out to fight.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: That works. I love the fact that we can talk about the Shrek soundtrack on this show. That's not something that often comes up. So yeah, I like that. What is the best nickname that you have ever been called?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Probably, I don't know, nicknames. I mean, someone, when I was younger, called me Gemstar, but I didn't know if that sounded like a bit of a poor name.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: I think we'll add Gemstone, like that's what I'm getting from Gemstar, Gemstone, so.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, no, like it's nice because it's just like, nice people. But yeah, I guess, I've not really got like, oh, I definitely, actually I've been called like one of the seven dwarfs, Dopey. I was called Dopey for, I got bought a Dopey. Yeah, not, more just like Gem.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah, I think I'd go with Gemstar over Dopey, just, you know, just personally, but hey, if you like Dopey, why not? Final question, what is one thing that you cannot live without?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Is the best.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Oh, good job. And she hasn't knocked over any children yet, so, you know.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: That's a very great touch word.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: Yes, exactly, exactly. Gemma, before we let you go, if people want to follow your journey towards Paris and everything else in between, social media, anything along those lines that people can check you out on?

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, that would be awesome. So my Instagram, I think, is just Gemma Howell, I'm not actually sure. And I think my Twitter is Gem H7. If you type my name in, you'll find me.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: We'll tag you, we'll tag you on this post, so if people sort of are following us, they can click on there and follow and check you out. But Gemma, it has been a pleasure to learn more about your career, the sport of judo, Britain, everything else in between as well. And I feel like right now, I'm gonna go watch White Chicks. I haven't even watched that in a long time. So I feel like we need to just organise a viewing party for White Chicks. It's a great movie.

 

GEMMA HOWELL: Yeah, no, that's a good start. Can never watch that one too many times.

 

BEN WATERWORTH: And a massive, massive thanks to Gemma there. A lot of fun, and yeah, I really kind of do want to watch White Chicks now. It has been a long time. It was a great movie. Maybe we need to cover it over on the Oz Network one time. Colin, if you're listening, let's queue up White Chicks to watch on a guilty pleasure month, or something along those lines too. But Gemma, big pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you very much for joining us. We are rapidly approaching two things right now here on Off The Podium, our 200th episode, as well as the Beijing Olympics. They are so close, you can touch them. We have so many great athletes coming up to talk about in the lead up to Beijing, both summer and winter. We've got a few more winters to come in the lead up to that. And of course, our 200th episode, where we will celebrate the occasion by giving you another clip show, basically playing snippets from all of the interviews that we've had from episodes 151 through to 199. So stay tuned for that. If you want to stay tuned to all of those, of course, type in Off The Podium in your podcast provider, hit the subscribe button while you're there. Leave us some feedback. We'd love to hear what you think of the show. And also hit us up on social media so you can stay up to date with everything that we've got going on on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram as well. And shoot us a message. We'd love to hear from you. Let us know what you think of the show, who you want to get on the show, and everything else. Maybe teach me how to speak properly. Eventually I will get through it at one point. Big thanks again to Gemma. Big thanks to everybody for listening. As always, a special shout out to Jason Momoa. And as always, go left.

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