Sami Jo Small Interview
We're back with an another Olympian interview as we chat with three-time Olympic ice hockey player and winner of two golds and a silver medal Sami Jo Small about her amazing career, her amazing book, her love of TV shows (that Ben apparently gets way too excited to chat to her about) and just why she is always willing to ride the squirrel bike.
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Please note this is an automated transcript that may contain errors.
BEN WATERWORTH: As we come to you today for another interview, we've had a few weeks off from these, but we've done that because we've had to do some research for our next interview. I've had to read a book in order for us to be able to have this next interview. And it's very exciting, actually, today to bring this to you. Before we introduce our guests, my name is Ben, but I'm gonna introduce Colin. Colin, hello, welcome back. This is exciting when you and I actually get to do a dual interview, rather than one of us just usually interviewing someone from our own country, where he'd come together to interview somebody from your country.
COLIN HILDING: That's right, and for the first time, I mean, Winnipeg can completely outnumber Victoria here, so that's a victory.
BEN WATERWORTH: Yes, that usually happens a lot, I feel, but hey, let's do this in podcast form. But this is a big chat, because this is someone I think you've mentioned a lot to me about getting on the show, proud Winnipegger that you wanted to be able to chat to, and sort of coincided with the release of a brand new book, her brand new book. The book is called The Role I Played, out now, out today, very fresh, through ECW Press. From the one, the only, Sami Jo Small, three-time Olympian, Olympic gold and silver medallist, and multiple world champion, one of the best goaltenders in this country you will ever meet and ever see, and so excited to be able to have her on Off The Podium today. Sami, first of all, to you, thank you so much for joining us on the program today.
SAMI JO SMALL: Well, thanks for having me. I'm excited, and excited that Colin's from Winnipeg. We have these tentacles. Winnipeggers just, we infiltrate every aspect of Canada. So we have just spread ourselves out, and we are going to take over soon. Right, Colin?
COLIN HILDING: Oh, absolutely. Ben will have to come to Winnipeg. We're just gonna lure him in.
BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah, that's a Mallory thing. You need to sell her, and my fiance believes Winnipeg all looks exactly the same. We were there, and she was driving around the streets, going, everything's the same. Nothing has changed here. What is this city? So try convincing Mallory, and we'll go there.
SAMI JO SMALL: I would say that Winnipeg is not really the tourist destination that you might think it might be, but Winnipeg's about the people. I always say it's about just the incredible people that you'll meet while you're there, and it's just so friendly. I ended up marrying a maritime, and I always compare the people to maritime, is that we just like to have a good time, and there's no pretentious bones in us. I haven't met Colin in person, but I'm assuming that about you, Colin.
BEN WATERWORTH: Pretentious.
COLIN HILDING: Very unpretentious, yeah.
BEN WATERWORTH: No, no, don't listen to him. The guy is filled with pretentious. I've been there twice, Sami, so I might have inducted a lot of tourism dollars in there in the last decade, more so than usual. So hey, maybe I'm doing something wrong.
SAMI JO SMALL: Thank you for supporting our province.
BEN WATERWORTH: You're welcome. You are absolutely welcome. But the book, as I said, the role I played is out now, and all jokes aside about me reading, because Colin will have plenty of those, but I thoroughly enjoy this book, because I will be completely honest with you, Sami. As an Australian who has only been living in Canada for about half a year, I wasn't overly familiar with who you are. So I deliberately, when I read this book, I didn't want to look up anything more about you. I didn't want to kind of research or anything. I just wanted to read this book almost blind, kind of learning about you. And I'm so glad I did, because I think that made me connect so much more with your journey and your story of your career so much more if I had have gone into this knowing everything about you, because it's fascinating. This story that you tell in this book, it's so honest and emotional and just incredible. I don't think I've ever read a book from an athlete's perspective like this before, because your journey, your career is incredible. And I really connected with what you were telling in this book. I have to say that to you right now.
SAMI JO SMALL: Well, thank you. That's really nice. I work as a professional speaker, and most of my clients, most of the people that are in my audiences don't know my story prior. So it's similar to you. So I think when I began first as a professional speaker, I omitted perhaps a lot of the nuances that now I include in my speech, because I think what I wanted to do for the book and in my speech is make it about the reader. I hope that not only did you get to learn about myself, but really the journey of our team and the people on my team, but also about yourself as well, thinking about emotions that you might have had in situations where you were maybe not put in the role that you wanted to be in or situations that I think are relatable. I tried to really put the reader in the book with me, going through the moments with me. And that at times was not easy. I had to relive some situations that were hard and made me angry. Sometimes I'd be cooking dinner and my husband would be like, why are you so angry? I was like, I feel like I just got pulled. I just got pulled from the game and I'm so mad. He's like, that was 15 years ago, so you need to get over it. But it was hard reliving and rehashing all those moments, but it certainly was cathartic for me. So hopefully I take the reader on the journey with me. And I'm so glad that I could get you to read a book. That's exciting.
COLIN HILDING: It's a tall task.
BEN WATERWORTH: Colin needs to find out more of your secret because, yeah.
SAMI JO SMALL: Did you enjoy the little bit of Australia that was in there?
BEN WATERWORTH: I did. I've got it on my list of questions. Don't worry. There's going to be a question about Australia. And there's even, I'm telling you now, there is a question I'm going to ask you that has got absolutely nothing to do with hockey that I'm sure no other podcast host will ask you. And I am so excited to talk to you about it. So stay tuned for that one.
SAMI JO SMALL: Let's see if you can surprise me. We'll go for it. I'll be anticipating near the end of the podcast.
BEN WATERWORTH: Oh, now all the pressure is on me. Gosh, geez. Uh-oh. Cut me, Colin. Quick, take me on. Put me on the bench.
COLIN HILDING: Just echoing what Ben said, I think as opposed to Ben, I had familiarity with you. I was watching in Salt Lake City and all the World Championships throughout the years. And I think up there with so many of the other players that get so much time in your book, too, you're one of the faces of women's hockey in Canada. And I was even caught off guard reading the book. I remember even messaging Ben probably about a hundred pages into this. And I'm like, this book is really good. And I think what sets it apart is that you expect you to go into... Well, not surprise. Surprise at the...
BEN WATERWORTH: I thought this was going to be crap, man, but actually it's really entertaining.
COLIN HILDING: Well, I think it's the direction that you take in the book that's so surprising, because you expect if you're going to read a sports biography, you're going to be reading about all the highs. And really, I think where the book is at its best is where you're talking about those lows that you mentioned, those emotional moments, being cut or not getting a spot. And I think you just put such a different face on what it's like to be just a goalie, even setting aside being in women's hockey as opposed to men's hockey, which people are going to be more familiar with the famous stories of, but being a goalie and really having to fight for your spot. And I think that's what I didn't expect going into the book is that it would have been so much more of an interesting story because we're reading more about your failures and your honesty about the failures.
SAMI JO SMALL: Yeah, I think that that's something that has evolved over my speaking career, that that seems to be what resonates with people on the stage. I sign autographs and do a little Q&A afterwards with people, and nobody recounts to me, oh, that was so great to hear about you winning the Olympic gold medal. Usually, they like to tell me a story about one of their challenges or their situations that they went through, or maybe they lost somebody close to them in their lives, or maybe they were put in a role they didn't want to be in. Then maybe they had to overcome some sort of trauma, and those are the moments that I think I've learned are more relatable, that that is more real and more raw, and it's more what we all share as a human experience. So while this book is about hockey, for sure, I think it is relatable to the general populace because it is simply about a person trying to fit into a team, and that could be within a workplace environment, that could be within a family, that could be in a sporting environment. But the various different roles and situations were put in and how others at times are really dictating our futures, that to me is the human experience. That's not just a hockey experience. It's not just a goaltender experience. And I wanted to talk about what the real raw emotions were because I could have candy-coated over everything and just said, wow, achieve your dreams and believe in yourself, and you too can achieve it. And while that's important to have goals and be motivated, I think that that's not really how most people's daily lives and daily grinds happen. So I tried to be more real with it so that they could really be immersed within the stories and discover something about themselves. I think that I didn't want this book to be a book about lessons learned. I didn't want to share with the reader, you're supposed to learn point one, point two, point three. This is your takeaway. I wanted the reader to take away whatever they chose to take away and however they felt in that moment because it's going to be different depending on where you are at in your life currently, the situations you've been put in, and different parts of the book are going to resonate with you. So I mean, that was sort of a heavy comment back, but I do want to just say for your listeners that we're doing this on Zoom and Colin has a picture of Shazam that I'm just staring at. And that is really... I'm trying to be super serious as I like, get this like thought felt.
BEN WATERWORTH: Did you like the movie? We just recapped it on The Oz Network, available now. If you want to give us your thoughts, we can add them into that episode if you really enjoyed that movie.
SAMI JO SMALL: I'm just really enjoying this picture because this is my mind but this is who I'm talking to right now. Shazam, it was really a good book. Thank you.
BEN WATERWORTH: Yes, our secret goal always was to start getting Olympians to recap movies with us. It's not about the book. We didn't read it. Sure, you want a gold medal, I think. Cool, whatever. So, Shazam, what do you think? It's what you're saying about, Colin sort of alluded to it as well in what he was saying because, you know, all jokes aside, I have read books in my life, and, you know, I often do read a lot of biographies and autobiographies. And it's always sort of, you know, unique to get that viewpoint. But even outside of reading a book, a lot of people would look at athletes, Olympians, professional athletes who are on the world stage, and, you know, you admire them. You kind of have this level. You talk a lot about in the book about your obsession with the Olympics and kind of looking up to these people. And it's not often that you get kind of that honesty, particularly when it comes to something like getting cut from an Olympic final or getting cut from a team. Because no matter how we look at these athletes, they're going to face disappointments in their life, and they're going to react like this. And reading sort of your reactions from the night before Salt Lake getting cut, you know, running out of the Olympic Village and trying to find somewhere by yourself just so you could have a cry, and then everything after being, you know, cut being made the third string goalie for Torino and just that whole period where you're basically bedridden from being so upset. I mean, that's what I'm connecting with because we've all got moments in our lives where we have those moments. And it's just, it was rare for me to ever see that from an Olympian or an athlete or something like that. And I can imagine for you, Sami, like so hard to be able to relive that, to be able to put that onto page and have that open up to the world. So a stranger like myself, a stranger like Colin, people who are gonna read this book can fully understand the level that you went through during those two moments in your life.
SAMI JO SMALL: For sure, it is strange, especially now with the book launch and people receiving the book and reading the book. It is, to me, it's less about the strangers and it's more about the people that you actually know. You tend to hide a lot from your friends. You tend to hide a lot from teammates. And this now is real and it's out there. When I first wrote the book nearly 10 years ago now, I wrote it very superficially and I didn't really include too many emotions within it. And to be honest, it was terrible writing. I mean, I'm an engineer by trade. It was very technical. I didn't really know how to write. And so I took a couple courses on writing and it helped me an enormous amount to put myself in the moment and to feel it again. But in feeling it again, it means you rehash it again. And it's like a devastating breakup. When you see that person again, it sucks. It's awful. And so when you're reliving those moments again, if you're really telling it truthfully and honestly, you're feeling it. And that was at times hard. And I said earlier, my poor husband had to deal with that a lot. And he had to deal with the amazing moments too. So you're reliving the highs and the lows. It was extremely cathartic after I wrote the book. I actually sent it to my teammates just to make sure that the stories were correct and the way I remember them were correct. But also to my coaches who, within the book, are not necessarily portrayed in the best light. Specifically Mel Davidson and Danielle Sauvageau, who I never really understood their decisions at the time. And having gone into coaching and into management, I now realise just the difficult positions that they were in and how I was just a small little cog compared to the whole organisation. But you don't feel that at the time, and you have these emotions and you have these feelings. And so I just wanted to really convey to them my respect for them, my acknowledgement of the difficult decisions that they had to make, and that I didn't want them to feel like I was throwing them under the bus in this book because it doesn't always say the nicest things about the coaches. But they both were incredibly mature, incredibly supportive, and really great about the whole process. They said that we had to make those choices, and we stand by our choices, and while there's things that we have learned as people later on, we may have done things differently. We may have communicated differently. They're still choices we had to make in the moment. And so I have the utmost respect for them for that. It's funny, Mel Davidson said to me, I asked them both if they wanted me to change anything, and some of the facts Danielle Sauvageau had me change just I had remembered them differently. But Mel was like, no, I just I trust your judgment. And she said, you know, in the future, whenever I give a coaching symposium, I'm going to say to the coaches, you know, when you're giving one-on-ones with athletes and you're talking directly to an athlete, just remember that whatever you say is going to be written in a book. So that was kind of a guiding principle for me moving forward. I might change the words I use a little bit.
BEN WATERWORTH: If you like F bombs and things like that, because, oh, they swore so much to those coaches, geez, my goodness, didn't realise they had that potty mouth.
SAMI JO SMALL: So yeah, so it definitely, you know, I just, I'm glad I had those conversations because those were some tough conversations for me to have, and I really haven't had many with them since then. You know, you see these people in passing at various events and stuff, but like I said, there's so many in the book, there's so many people involved, there's so many roles, there's so many positions that they are just one person. But we think that they're the be-all end-all, but they have 30 people they got to take care of, plus an entire staff, plus all this. So, yeah.
COLIN HILDING: Yeah, and as far as the coaching and everything, I mean, I think you start the book by saying, okay, almost essentially saying apologies to anybody who's going to be offended with this. And when I was reading it, I'm like, is this just the most friendly Manitoba thing I've ever read? But then you do read more of the book. And again, I don't feel like you're ever harsh to anybody in the book, but even as far as the competition from your fellow goalies. And that's the other part that I think people don't necessarily realise. When you look at the Olympics, typically they're individual sports. And you're here in a team sport, a team sport that when you first get into it in 1998, is brand new women's hockey in the Olympics. And it was going to be very competitive. And again, I don't feel like you're ever harsh to the other goalies, but there must have been some real competition. And you get into it quite a bit in the book about, okay, this is my spot. What am I going to do to keep my spot? Should I be happy that we're winning, or should I hope that maybe they let in another goal so that I can get my spot in the game?
SAMI JO SMALL: Yeah, it was a difficult paradox of emotions that we experienced as athletes. And I think just as people in general, that we hope that people can't possibly go on without us, but they do, and that's the reality. And so how do you come to terms with being in a supportive role? You don't want to be too good in that role, or they'll keep you there. So you have to want more, but you have to also support the people. And it just, that didn't necessarily come naturally for me. I'm a very competitive person. I always wanted to be in that role, as I mentioned. And it's funny how Kim St-Pierre and I, who I talk a lot about Kim in the book as my goalie partner, I think we have become better friends post-career than we ever were during. And that's not to say that we ever fought or there was any ever words said between us, but we just were not in the same social circles. So she was in the other net the entire time. Like, it's not like you're getting to interact with the other goaltender. And then, you know, you have different roommates, you, the goal, the coaches put you in different spots in the dressing room, because you're in the big goalie stalls that tend to be in the opposite corners. And so you're just not having this interaction, necessarily, with the other goaltenders that you might have with some of the other players. And so I, for sure, battled with those emotions, and I talk a lot about that in the book about, yeah, should I want her to let another goal in? Her failure becomes my success, but is that a way to achieve success? Or is that your break? Do you need to make the most of it in that situation? How do you rectify it with that other person? And there's one story in the book in particular before the World Championships in Mississauga, 2000, where the coaches told us who was playing in the final game together. And that was difficult for me because you see the emotion of the person beside you, and you know that that's their dream, too. And you don't want to be excited, but now you're getting to play the final. And so you want to share some empathy with the person beside you, but you don't want it to be ungenuine. So you just kind of never knew what to say around this other person. I always tried to be supportive and tapped her on the pads in the dressing room, and you do what you do because you're a teammate. But I think our relationship has evolved since then, and it's too bad because I think we could have been great friends then. We just never were really given that opportunity. We were always sort of forced into competition against each other, and that's the reality of the situation. I think that forwards go through the same thing. If they're on the fourth line centre, you might want to be a third line centre. You might want to be on the power play. You might want to be the person taking the shootout final shot. There's always more that you think you should be getting, and somebody is in that position that you're envious of. So I think those emotions are real, and I didn't want to shy away from those in the book. I didn't necessarily want to candy coat my own perception to say as if I was this great person that just handled everything perfectly because I didn't and it was hard. But in the end, I think that that competition made us all better as goaltenders and pushed us all to a new level. And it doesn't always mean you need to be friends with your teammates, but you need to respect your teammates and you need to have that confidence that they can perform under the circumstance, whoever gets chosen.
BEN WATERWORTH: I'm glad that you said you're sort of becoming friends more so with Kim now. Because reading this book through your eyes, if this was a fiction book, Kim to me would have been the villain. And I would have been like, boo, Kim! Like, I want Sami on the team. So I was like, yay! She got the team now. Boo, boo, Kim! So I'm glad that that's happened now.
SAMI JO SMALL: Yeah, and her going into Hockey Hall of Fame recently was really, I mean, it was amazing. It was something that, you know, you feel a small part of her victory as well. And it, you know, it comes down to a few coaches' decisions that are different. But she made the most of her opportunities and performed incredibly well when necessary. So I say that right at the beginning of the book that she's portrayed as the villain. But in reality, and, you know, throughout the book, I hope I convey her personality, that she's just like the nicest, sweetest person. It never was her choice to be in that, you know, obviously she wanted to be there, but she never made the choice. It wasn't like she was pushing me away or we were battling to get the puck together. We never could battle against each other. That's the ironic thing about goaltending is you are never in competition, like in a tennis game. You're not beating them. The choice is being made by somebody else. And the quicker you can come to that realization to not be angry at the person on your team, but maybe direct your anger at your coach. Is that the right thing?
BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah, that's right. I mean, different sports. I was always goalie in field hockey back in Australia and would try out for representative teams and never good enough. But it was kind of, it's an interesting thing from that goalie's perspective. And I really like reading that because it is, you know, you think it's just measured on how many goals you let in, for example, but there was one of the stories you told in the book where the coach was telling sort of Kim, like, well, she had let less goals in, but I've got a feeling, Sami, that you're gonna be a better choice for this. It's kind of that vibe, isn't it? And that seems a lot of that throughout those decisions that you talk about in the book, not necessarily came down to just, oh, you know, Kim had more shutouts or you had more shutouts. It was also that vibe thing. And for the most part, it seemed, most of those decisions worked out because mostly Canada would go on to win most of those tournaments.
SAMI JO SMALL: Well, and I think that that allowed the coaches, I think they knew they had good decisions. And it wasn't just Kim and I who was another four or five goalies behind us that could have played and could have won those games. So that's why I think that maybe not as much thought, I shouldn't say thought, they certainly put a lot of thought into the choice, but not as much thought in the way they communicated it because it wasn't really a big deal to them. They could win with whoever happened to be in the net. And I think that's a testament to the goal-tending in this country. But yeah, it certainly wasn't easy, but those choices that had to be made were made, and so many other people could have been in those roles, but we were the fortunate ones.
COLIN HILDING: You know, in the dozens of interviews we've done with Olympic medallists, the question that I always look forward to the most is, when did you know you were going to be an Olympian? When did you want to be an Olympian? And what we've noticed is the majority of people just simply say, you know, I just happened to be in a sport, and then they said, hey, you can qualify for the Olympics or whatever. And I think John Montgomery earlier this summer was the first person who said, I watched the Olympics, and I said, I want to be there. So whatever sport it is, I'll do it. And that was kind of you. I mean, you grew up as a fan of the Olympics, sitting there with your checklists and your maps and watching the opening ceremonies.
BEN WATERWORTH: I'm 33, and I'm still hopeful one day I'll make it. I'm still doing it.
COLIN HILDING: We'll be doing it next year. But that's how you grew up. You mentioned that you had this goal. You wanted to be an Olympian. You and your brother both had the goal. You wanted to be an Olympian. And it wasn't even just hockey. I mean, you had scholarship in track and field. But for you personally, was it always going to be hockey? And if it hadn't been, would you have been happy enough to be swimmer, discus, anything else?
SAMI JO SMALL: For sure. It was certainly my dream to go to the Olympics, but the Summer Olympic Games. Women's hockey was not an Olympic sport, so I never dreamt about going to the Olympics in hockey. I dreamt about playing in the NHL, like most of my teammates. But because it wasn't a dream that we could have as women, it wasn't even on my radar. So we played all these other sports. And while I pursued them, and I did well in other sports as well, it wasn't the sports that I did in track and field and swimming. Those are world sports that are obviously many more competitors, and Canada isn't always on top in all of those disciplines, especially at the time in throwing. So I did well as a javelin and discus thrower within our country, but that doesn't mean you can qualify and get the standards to go to the Olympic Games. So the reality in individual sports is that it is much more cutthroat to make it to that level. And to be an individual athlete at the Olympic Games in any sport means that you've had to qualify your position based on your performance. So I've been asked if I think I could have gone to the Summer Olympic Games had I just continued to pursue those sports. And the reality is I would have loved to have. Of course I would have pushed myself as far as I could have gone, but that doesn't happen for everybody. It's like saying you want your son to make the NHL or your daughter to make the Olympic team. It just isn't going to always happen for everybody, despite the fact that we all might really want it to happen. I think that I just was so fortunate to come through hockey at a time where it really was in its infancy for women in this country. I talk about in the book being scouted by Wally Kozak, who was the first coach from the national program to see me play just haphazardly in some random game in Calgary. And had that not happened, there would be no Olympic career for Sami Jo. I wouldn't even have known about the team. So those moments that obviously you have to take advantage of when you're in those moments. But I also am not, you know, I'm grateful that they happened to me, but I am not blind to know that they didn't happen for a lot of other people and that I was placed in a position of fortunate circumstance. But, you know, for my brother who pursued swimming at the highest level, had a college scholarship to swim, you know, he dedicated his life to it and came very close. And there are so many athletes that come so very close. And I think this is an homage to a lot of those players that came so very close. And, you know, had we not had so many of those great players in Canada, it wouldn't have elevated the entire team higher to have to push each other and to compete for those positions. But I've talked a lot about the athletes that didn't make it, somebody like Delaney Collins, who was the last cut from three straight Olympic Games teams. And while she's a world champion, people tend to celebrate the Olympics more than they celebrate the world championships. They just know about it. And so she's one of those untold stories that, you know, nobody knows the name, but they should, because they are so close and so valuable to the whole process and to the whole team, really.
BEN WATERWORTH: The other thing you're mentioning about women's hockey at the time, not being an Olympic sport, obviously came in at 1998. I loved that sort of insight into where players like yourself were in that period of hockey in Canada, you know, playing on AAA boy sides, the whole 1990 World Championships of, hey, you should wear pink because this will make you, you know, because you're women, you should be wearing pink, just things like that. And here we are now, fast forward to 2020, and so professional when it comes to just the scouting and how Team Canada and Team USA and all of the major countries in the world have their women's programs. It really made me look back in Australia. Our main sport is Australian football, and only in the last couple of years have they launched the women's league, and it's been huge. And hearing all these similar stories to what I was reading in the book about how all these women who wanted to play football would have to play with the boys, and they would be getting, you know, talked down to, you can't play this sport because you're on one, things like that. And it just, it made me admire Canada for being so ahead of the game. I'm sure it didn't feel that way in the 90s, Sami, but, you know, we're nearly 30 years later, and here we are now with this. So do you ever kind of look at it now? It's easy to probably look at it now and think that Canada was a bit forward thinking with women's hockey now that this amount of time has passed because we are at this stage now with women's hockey?
SAMI JO SMALL: For sure. I think that the countries that do well in female sports are the ones that, within their society, treat women with a certain type of equality. Now, that doesn't mean within our country, we still, there isn't further to go, but I always felt grateful that I was in this country. I don't know if you guys remember the Molson Hockey Summit. It was after, I think, the men lost in 1998 and didn't get a medal, and so there was this huge uproar in Canada. And so they had this huge hockey summit, and Vladislav Tretjak, who ran at the time the Russian Ice Hockey Federation, was asked by Haley Wickenheiser, one of my teammates, why are you guys not putting any money into Russian women's hockey? You guys are so great in men's hockey. And he said, well, the women in my country, they don't want to play hockey. And if that was the thought process of the men at the time, then of course there's going to be no opportunities for young girls. So I do think that the generation I grew up in, we were allowed to play. And that to me meant all the difference. My mother's generation wasn't allowed. There's an entire group of our generation of women before me that were not allowed to play the game, which is interesting because in the 1930s, 40s, and 50s, there was women's hockey in this country. And then it kind of fell by the wayside when they started to say that women couldn't play sports for various reasons. Our uterus would fall out or whatever the societal norm at the time was. But I do think that women on the world stage, you can see now that Canada is a leader in world sport because of our society, because we emphasize sport for women and for young girls and try to encourage them to stay within the sport. The countries that do well in women's ice hockey are not necessarily the same as in men's ice hockey. A country like Japan does very well. They've qualified for the last two Olympic Games. Well, in men's hockey, they're non-existent, but in women's hockey, they've been able to elevate themselves because they've been given funding, and lots of them train in North America, and they've been treated relatively fairly and equitably by their federation. So as more federations start to do that, we're going to start to see some of these hockey-minded countries start to really elevate their game as well. And yeah, we're lucky in Canada for sure.
BEN WATERWORTH: And that must make you feel even more proud than when you have a young girl coming up to you, asking for an autograph, saying, hey, I love what you do, and knowing that she now has such a different opportunity to go as far as you did compared to yourself, whereas you're talking about your mother or the women before you.
SAMI JO SMALL: It's amazing to walk into, like when I walked into a rink and heard heckles or jeers because I was a girl, and now walk into a hockey rink anywhere in this country, and it'd just be normal that a little girl with a ponytail is carrying a hockey bag, and that's it's her hockey bag, it's not her brother's. And those questions are non-existent, it's normalized. So for the most part, I feel like it has been fully integrated. And now I think the next step is integrating people of colour within the game and new Canadians so that all Canadians can play. And a lot of that too is a societal difference from some of the areas that people are coming from, just allowing them and introducing them to the game of hockey, it might be something else. And that's okay, too. You know, I get asked a lot about the future of hockey in this country. And to me, it's not about hockey. To me, it's about encouraging play. And whatever that happens to be, wherever in this country that we live, whatever the games are that people want to play, just as long as they're given the opportunities to play, that's what's important. And it could be soccer and cricket or badminton and hockey or table tennis. It could be whatever, as long as people are given the same opportunities across genders and across racial divides, I think that that's really important.
COLIN HILDING: I think exposure and the examples you see is what leads to sports breaking out among genders and different races and everything. Because if you look back to around the time that you're starting the book here, 97, 98, I can remember being in the same city in Winnipeg, and there may be girls playing hockey, but it wasn't like you had these huge teams of all girls hockey. And flash forward to just before the 2018 Olympics, one of the exhibition games between Canada and US was here in Winnipeg at the MTS Centre. And you obviously know it. You can sell out the MTS Centre with any type of hockey here in Winnipeg. But what was crazy to me is I took my three nieces, and I looked around, and I saw probably a third of the arena filled with girls, young girls, who were wearing their jerseys from their teams, entire teams going to this. And that's not something that you would have seen in 1998, probably not something you would have seen in 2002. And here you are, and you're one of the faces that really led this revolution in women's hockey. And you see all the other teammates you write about in your book, Haley Wickenheiser. I read a book to my four-year-old son every single night that's like the alphabet of hockey, and it's W is for Wickenheiser, and women paved the way. You got Cassie Campbell, who's hockey night in Canada every single Saturday night, and you write about being there and watching her the first time you've got this book out. You really have led the way, whereas I don't feel like these girls would have been there in their jerseys in the MTS Centre if they weren't seeing the success that you had being able to be part of the Olympics and being able to bring home the gold medal in games and in Olympics where the men weren't getting any medals at all.
SAMI JO SMALL: You're so right that it's about exposure, and it's about seeing it. You can be it when you can see it. And I was fortunate to go to Calais, Jean-Sauveil, and Winnipeg, and Saint-Metal. Roo-roo, Saint-Metal. And my gym teacher was a track and field coach, and because of that, I was exposed to discus and javelin. And I would have, I mean, who throws discus and javelin in high school in Canada, really? But because of that support and seeing other track and field athletes being exposed to that, I was able to get a scholarship down to Stanford to throw the discus and javelin. And we're just, you're sort of a, as athletes, we, I think we need more exposure. While hockey, I think, is a great sport, I think it's really important that we expose our children to all these various different sports. And what's great about the Olympics is that kids can see Rosie jump on a trampoline, or they can see a sledge hockey player skate across the ice, and they can imagine themselves doing it. And they might not have ever seen it live before, but they can see it at the Olympic Games. And so I think we as hockey are part of the fabric of this society, but I think it needs to be more inclusive to more other sports so that kids can really find out what their passions are. Because you're so right that unless they can see it, they can't even dream about it. And so many of those girls that were in that MTS Center, there's now three girls that are now on the Olympic team from that game that watched as little girls, which is really amazing to see. So Bridget Laquette and Jocelyn LaRock and Halle Kruzanjak were all at that game as young girls. That's not to say they couldn't have made the national team eventually on their own, but it allowed them to dream, and it allowed them to picture themselves on the ice alongside us, which might not have happened had they not seen it live.
BEN WATERWORTH: It's great to hear stories like that, and I hope that if I listen to enough podcasts with more listeners that maybe I too will be able to create a podcast that will have listeners similar to those with going to games with players.
SAMI JO SMALL: The Olympic team is still not over. Don't give up on that, Ben.
BEN WATERWORTH: Well, I constantly say curling is my sport because Australia has about 30 curlers in the entire country. I'm living in Canada now, the home of curling, so I feel if I learn it enough, I could go back and teach my fellow countrymen and women how to play it better and make the Olympics.
COLIN HILDING: The ringer.
SAMI JO SMALL: You can also win a gold in short track speed skating.
BEN WATERWORTH: Well, yeah, that's what we do. We just wait for everyone to fall over. That's basically what we do. That's how Australians win medals at the Winter Olympics, right? Someone who with your brother watched those games was glued to the TV. As Colin said, you're tracking the country, things like that. As a fan of the Olympics, when you're in that village experience, you got to do it three times. There was one moment, I think, in Torino, you're talking about buying a notepad to write notes to your teammates. I can't imagine not going into an Olympic store, because I know you guys get exclusive merchandise that the fans don't get, the athletes get some extra things. So do you just like bring all this extra cash and just come home with suitcases filled with all this Olympic memorabilia that you never throw out?
SAMI JO SMALL: So, yes, I do. Because I'm a junkie. But that's the one thing, you know, Jennifer Bottrow was one of my best friends, and I talk a lot about her in the book. Her dad is a famous sports psychologist who's worked with NHL teams. Her brother was GM of the Buffalo Sabres, won three World Junior Championships for Canada. And her mum was an Olympic speed skater. So she grew up in this environment where that was normal. You know, pursuing this excellence was normal. And that's not to say she didn't appreciate the moment and wasn't grateful. But she wasn't like me. I mean, I was just like, I need to buy every poster on the wall, and I need to trade everything that I, you know, I want everything from every country. I certainly was that athlete. You know, I got into the pin trading. I was fully immersed in the Olympic Games. So it's probably good that a lot of times I sat on the bench because who knows if I would be cleared, but I was the best Olympic Games tourist that has ever existed. That's my gold medal right there.
BEN WATERWORTH: That's the one you want. That's a good one to have.
SAMI JO SMALL: So yes, I have some very cool stuff from the Olympic Games, and I liked bringing home the random stuff. Like I brought home, I gave my brother from Nagano a napkin dispenser.
BEN WATERWORTH: That's the gold medal of autumn there.
SAMI JO SMALL: And it has the Nagano Games Olympic. Those kind of things are really, I love those little knickknacky things. They're just awesome.
COLIN HILDING: Your first games were in Nagano, and you were obviously elated to be there. You were the third string goalie. You didn't get to play though. And that is another large part of the book, is I guess the issue with what happens when you are a player who is very responsible for getting the country, getting the team to the games, but then just because you don't happen to play in those games, you don't get a medal. And this is something that's obviously changed now, but that was your first Olympic experience, was living through that. You were an Olympian. You were responsible for being there, and then you didn't get to take home a medal. What did that feel like, you know, going through the games? And then, I mean, how many other players? Was it only you, or was it something that struck a lot of the team? They didn't get to take home a medal just because they weren't part of the Olympic Games themselves?
SAMI JO SMALL: Yeah, so it was just me. I was the only one.
COLIN HILDING: That's brutal.
SAMI JO SMALL: However, I have since learned that this happens in a lot of different sports. So I have a good friend of mine who is a synchronized swimmer. They won a bronze in Sydney, actually. And her first Olympic Games, she was deemed to be the alternate. Now, what that means is you travel to the Games and you are part of the team and you're swimming right up until the finals. You could actually even swim in the prelims. And then the final 10 are chosen, and there's 11 on the team, and one doesn't swim and one doesn't get a medal. The same thing can be said in various different relays at the Olympic Games. They're chosen at the last minute. It might have been a different squad moving forward. And the final team gets that medal. Now in running, it's a little bit different, but various other relays. And women's soccer, when we first won the bronze medal in London, I think that was our first bronze medal. If you are on the squad but never see time on the field, you don't get a medal. And there was only one athlete that was in that position. So in fact, after she came home, and nobody knows these stories, but somebody reached out to me and said she was having a really tough time, and she didn't think anybody else knew what she was going through. And of course, unfortunately, I've had the same experience. And I think that that relates to a wider landscape, because I think that oftentimes in a workplace environment, somebody puts a ton of work into a presentation, but somebody else presents it. So they get no recognition, no accolades for it. And ultimately, I think what I've learned through all of that is that, yeah, it sucks. It sucks to not be recognised for your efforts. But ultimately, you need to be proud of what you do. You need to find solace knowing that you put everything you could into that team, into yourself, into your training, and that's what you need to sort of fall back on. You know, it's hard at times because people still ask me to see those medals. And, you know, sometimes I mention this in books. Sometimes I'll explain it to people, and sometimes I'll just glaze over it like I didn't bring it. It's just such a long story to have to tell to people. But it happens to more than just me. I'm not the only one on the Canadian women's hockey team, but I'm not the only one. And in fact, in Salt Lake City, when Kim and I were the number one and two, Charlene Labonte was number three. So she's gone through the situation as well at different Olympics. And like I said, other sports go through it, and we just never hear the stories of it. So it sucks, but you have to kind of take it all, knowing you did what you could in that situation.
COLIN HILDING: Did you ever get creative? Because you do mention different things that you do. Oh, yeah, I just forgot to bring it. Did you ever get creative and just pull out your Salt Lake medal and just cover the name with your finger or something in the year?
SAMI JO SMALL: It's funny, after the Torino Olympics, you can go on eBay and buy Olympics medals.
BEN WATERWORTH: I do that constantly. I'm a multiple gold medallist.
SAMI JO SMALL: Or you can buy leftover medals that didn't get awarded. You know, like some of the sports, not that this is a summer or winter Olympics, but some of the sports award two bronze medals or whatever, or they make extra in case more people. So there was like a figure skating medal from Torino for sale, and I contemplated it. I was like, not really my medal. It has a figure skater.
BEN WATERWORTH: We had Jamie Soleil on, and she was talking about how they obviously got the silver medals, and they eventually got the gold. And she and David asked, can we still keep the silver medals, even though we've got the gold now? And they unfortunately weren't allowed to.
SAMI JO SMALL: Oh, they wouldn't let them. So that's the medal that was maybe for sale.
BEN WATERWORTH: Maybe. I love reading, though, in the book, when you talk about how in Vancouver, they changed that rule, because the men, I think you said, got them, but the women didn't, or something like that.
SAMI JO SMALL: Basically, the roster in men's hockey was always deemed to be 23. So at every Olympics, they could bring 23 people, 20 can dress, and 23 will get the medals, as long as they're in and out of the lineup at a certain point. That's all that has to happen. But that was not the case in women's hockey. We had a roster of 20\. Maybe they thought that women, I don't know, didn't get hurt or something. We didn't have a big enough roster. They didn't have enough room in the village. I don't know what it was. Yeah, so it then escalated in Vancouver was the first time it was 21. And then in Pyeongchang was the first time that it was at 23. So it has now at least fair and equitable. And at the World Championship level, it's been at 23 since 2002. So the IHF has recognised it. It took the IOC a little while to come on.
BEN WATERWORTH: Which must be equally great for you to see that finally happen, but frustrating because then you're like, hey, guys, you should have done this like 20 odd years ago. Then I'll have another gold and a silver in my collection.
SAMI JO SMALL: I mean medals from the past, please.
BEN WATERWORTH: Well, they do that sometimes, don't they? They offer like historic medals. I mean, surely you can say like, hey, guys, come on now and bring this. There's only like three Olympics that you didn't do this. That's not going to cost you that much.
SAMI JO SMALL: It won't cost you. Like, can I just make it myself? I've had some really sweet, generous people over the years that have fabricated some arts and crafts medals for me over the years. Hockey Canada, in fact, in, I guess it would have been 2010, because the coaches also don't get medals at the Olympic Games, but they get medals at the World Championships. Hockey Canada started to fabricate medals for the coaching staff, too, and for the players. So that was nice to see that at least they're recognising that somebody is in that position. But I also find it so sweet when fans will make something for me or little kids will come up to me and cut out a medal out of paper, or some will give me their medal that they won, like a participation medal in soccer or something. Well, it's so cute to see it, and it really does make you realise that it is just a medal. It is just a piece of something. It doesn't take away from the experience I had. It doesn't take away from what we went through as a team, and it just is something. It's an object. It doesn't really represent all of my experience for me.
COLIN HILDING: I'm glad you did get something, because reading the book, I had the same thought as Ben. I was feeling bad, and I'm actually looking right now at the medal that Ben and I both have for a virtual 10K we ran back in July. And I'm like, well, we need to pitch in to get her hernogono and Toreno medals, but I think you have enough now, right?
SAMI JO SMALL: You want to make me one.
BEN WATERWORTH: We'll work something out.
SAMI JO SMALL: Make Sami Jo the best medal you can.
BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah, we'll do something like that. Sami, before we let you go, a couple of quick things I really enjoyed in the book. You mentioned that, I believe, the Salt Lake Air Canada gave you basically a flight to anywhere in the world. You could choose wherever you wanted to go. You went to Australia, which made me happy. How was that experience? Have you been back since?
SAMI JO SMALL: So, interestingly enough, both my husband and I chose Australia to go to as the furthest place you could go for the use Air Canada for the most amount of money they could possibly give you. And I was just fortunate that one of my roommates from college from Stanford days lived there. And she was actually working for what was Pixar in Australia. So it was really cool to be there with her and with her partner at the time and to have sort of insider knowledge into Sydney. She was living right downtown Sydney at the time. And her partner took me on one of their work trips out to Melbourne. So I got to stay over there. And then I rented a car and I drove the Sunshine Coast.
BEN WATERWORTH: Yep, yep.
SAMI JO SMALL: So I drove the Sunshine Coast by myself, just staying in hostels along the way. That was really amazing. But I think the best trip I took on my own was to the Australian Institute of Sport. So I just hopped on a bus and drove out there. And I hadn't really, you know, this is before the internet. So this is before you really have any knowledge. But I was obviously I grew up in a swimming family, and the Australian Institute of Sport just evoked so much of what I think the rest of the world wanted to create for sport. And so I just I walked around the campus. I didn't know anybody. I didn't know where to go. I thought it was just this mecca for me. And so I just walked in and watched a swimming practice, a swim practice. And it was like they had all this technology around the pool. And it just it seemed like, you know, I wish I would have taken a tour, but I didn't. I just, you know, read my Frobisher's Guide or whatever I was reading. And I stayed a night there and then went home. And I think that was probably my best experience there because it was so different than the way the rest of the sport was really approaching the rest of the world was approaching sport. And to see men and women on par with the same opportunities, access to medical care, and just being full-time athletes was incredible. I had never seen something like that before. So Australia was ahead of the curve when it came to that. And that's really because they hosted the Sydney Olympics, that they were able to prepare in that way and made a conscious effort to be number one on the world stage. And I think other countries have started to follow suit. And with Canada, the only podium program that came prior to the Vancouver Olympics was really just a duplicate model to the Australian Institute of Sport. And we're all trying to be like Australia, let's be honest.
COLIN HILDING: I try hard to be like Ben.
BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah, it's only natural. That's why we want to host the 2032 Olympics again, because everyone's overtaken us now. I mean, bloody United Kingdom after London.
COLIN HILDING: I have to chime in for a second too, because back during Rio, we started a campaign on this show when we launched for Flynn Flawn, what was it, 2024?
BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah, I think so.
COLIN HILDING: So as a Manitoban, you have to endorse our campaign for Flynn Flawn at any point for any Olympics in the future.
SAMI JO SMALL: Well, Ben know that Flynn Flawn is the only city in the entire world named after a cartoon character.
BEN WATERWORTH: I believe we can discuss that during the Rio Olympics. I remember that fact, yes.
SAMI JO SMALL: Flynn Flawn looks very Farniton, and the Flynn Flawn bombers are a big hockey team there.
BEN WATERWORTH: Wow, the ambassadors of the bid. I like this.
SAMI JO SMALL: I mean, they got everything. What else do you need?
BEN WATERWORTH: What did we watch? Didn't we watch a movie, Colin, and somebody was wearing a Flynn Flawn hockey jersey? Wasn't that on that Santa movie?
COLIN HILDING: Yeah, that Santa movie, the horror movie with Bill Goldberg as Santa.
BEN WATERWORTH: Someone was wearing a Flynn Flawn hockey jersey. We love that, actually.
SAMI JO SMALL: I have not maybe watched the horror movie with Santa in it.
COLIN HILDING: Pretty epic.
BEN WATERWORTH: You'll be blown away.
SAMI JO SMALL: That absurdly sounds it.
BEN WATERWORTH: Speaking of which, the thing that I really wanted to touch on, again, completely not Olympics related at all, I really love the fact that during the Torino Games, you were watching 24, and you loved Jack Bauer. So, I mean, are you still a fan? Did you watch it all? What did you take on 24 for? It's one of my favourite shows, Sami, so I had to ask you about it.
SAMI JO SMALL: So, first of all, I was with Sherry Piper, and Piper had the, back in the day, the CDs, you had to bring a whole package of CDs with you. And so it was this brand new thing. And she stayed up all hours. I mean, she slept like four hours a night. She still does. That's just the way she was. And I sleep like 12 hours a night. I mean, I sleep so much. And when playing, I am sort of fully immersed in being the pro hockey player. She never is. She never... And so she's always looking for people to watch these shows with her. Well, in Torino, it was a perfect storm, I guess, because there I was not playing all the time in the world. And we just became obsessed. We would leave practice, and we would just run back to be able to watch these videos. And so we probably watched each series in two days. With being a full-time Olympic athlete at the same time. But the neatest part of all of that is our second game in Torino. Donald Sutherland came to watch the game. And so here I am, I'm the fan, right? And it's rumored that he's in the arena. Well, then the girls are like, Sami, you need to go sit beside him. You need to go tell him we're watching it. So, I mean, I did. I kind of made my way around. And they're like, how do you introduce yourself? I'm on the team, but I'm just not right now here. I hope you're enjoying the game. By the way, we're watching your son. He's very nice. But I feel like I was just like this little, like, goo, gaga fan. Like, oh, my gosh. So it was pretty amazing that he was in. I don't know if he is filming over there at the time or what he was doing. Should have maybe asked him. But, yeah, we certainly did become obsessed. But it's not, the problem with 24 is it's not the kind of show that you can watch multiple times. You know, once you know the end, you know it.
BEN WATERWORTH: So it's not like you can... Unless you're idiots like Colin and I who do recaps and just live our... I think the thing that makes me happy about that, though, is that, you know, if I binge watch it, I can literally say, hey, I'm like Olympians because they binge watch it in the Olympic Village.
COLIN HILDING: That's our sport. That's how we're getting in. For Flynn-Flawn, let's make it a sport.
SAMI JO SMALL: We even bought a special computer that had the CD player attached to it for the first time. That was a huge deal at the time. We spent so much money just so we could, like, continue to watch 24.
BEN WATERWORTH: That's awesome, that's awesome.
SAMI JO SMALL: We even watched it for a little while at the beginning on, you know, the portable DVD players that we used to...
BEN WATERWORTH: Oh, yeah, those. And now we've got, what, phones, a bunch of portable and just Netflix and all that kind of fun stuff. And so before I let you go, I have to ask as well, squirrel bikes, did they not take off where you kind of ran over squirrels?
SAMI JO SMALL: I'm almost willing to ride the squirrel bike, so if anybody needs me to push the decapitated squirrel out of the brake pads, like, I'm available. For anybody that is listening that thinks that that's a really strange story, you just have to read the book. I still giggle when I think about coming up to the situation where those girls were dealing with this squirrel, and it still makes me laugh, so I'm glad you guys enjoyed that section.
BEN WATERWORTH: It was brilliant. I mean, I still get giddy over seeing a squirrel here. We were recording yesterday, Colin. He did. I'm on the third floor on our deck, and our cat's eyeing the squirrel off, and I'm like, oh, squirrel, squirrel! And Colin's like, it's just a squirrel. I'm like, well, if you were in Australia and a kangaroo was outside, you'd be losing your shit too. Come on, that's just regular to me.
COLIN HILDING: The crazy part was that he was impressed. He's like, but I'm up on the third floor. I'm like, these things will run across power lines. Like, the third floor is nothing for a squirrel.
SAMI JO SMALL: No, that's, it's funny. Jen Botrill. So we talk about this story a lot. And in 2002, they did a little documentary about our team, and they talked to Vicky about the squirrel bike. And so that kind of came out. And Jennifer Botrill was doing a presentation out in St. Thomas, I think, in the Maritimes at the university, the Tommies. And she showed up. And their team mantra for the year that year was, I'll ride the squirrel bike. And they put it on the back of their T-shirts. And that was really cool to see that that had sort of permeated mass culture. So maybe we can start to make signs that say that.
BEN WATERWORTH: I'll ride the squirrel bike.
COLIN HILDING: Or a medal.
SAMI JO SMALL: I also have a picture of the squirrel in the bike. I wanted to have the book, but the publisher was like, it doesn't have a head on it. That probably wouldn't really go over well with the readers.
BEN WATERWORTH: Well, if you want to share that with us, we'll put it on our social media. We're happy to do that. Yes. If we don't have a publishing company, they won't care.
COLIN HILDING: It'll be my pro for all further interviews from this point going forward. Shazam will be replaced as that squirrel pic on my profile.
SAMI JO SMALL: Promise?
COLIN HILDING: Promise. Absolutely. 100%.
BEN WATERWORTH: Okay. You set the bar high. Sami, it has been so fun chatting with you. Of course, the book, The Role I Played is out now in good retailers on Amazon, wherever you get books these days. I don't know. I got it sent to me because I don't read. So I don't know where you buy books. I'm sure people out there know how to do it. But great chat. People read the book. You'll learn more about these stories and more. And we really appreciate your time on Off The Podium today.
SAMI JO SMALL: Well, thank you, guys. Great to meet you, Ben and Kindred Spirits in Winnipeg or in Collins, so thank you.
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