Robert Livingstone Interview
A very special interview coming your way today as we chat with the man behind the popular Olympic bid news website GamesBids.com Robert Livingstone about his incredible career covering the Olympics and learning more about the Olympic bid process. Robert goes over just how his interest for the Olympic bid process was sparked and how he was able to turn it into a career he still holds today. He also goes over just what it was like covering Olympic bids during the 90s and how the bid process has changed over the years. Added to this his thoughts on the Brisbane bid, as well as trying to work out what on earth is happening with the 2026 Commonwealth Games, it’s an informative chat that any fan of the Olympics won’t want to miss!
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Please note this is an automated transcript that may contain errors.
BEN WATERWORTH: It is Off The Podium, an Olympics podcast coming to you today, once again, for another great interview and a very unique, special interview we're bringing you today. Robert Livingstone, who is the man behind the website, gamesbids.com. Now, this website has been around now for nearly 20 or so years. Started off its time featuring news and information about the 2008 Toronto bid for the Olympic Games and then transitioned into a general GamesBid website. And it's a unique website because there isn't much information out there when it comes to the Olympic bidding process for people who are fans of it. And I, for one, am a fan of the bid process of the Olympics. It always fascinates me how cities end up hosting the Olympic Games. And Robert goes into great detail here about his fascination with the bidding process, how he got involved in this unique aspect of the Olympic Games and just what it's brought to him. This has brought him a great career. He's travelling all around the world, getting to visit these cities who are bidding for the Olympics and really getting a great insight into not only the bidding process, but the cities and kind of getting to know the venues and the plans and everything else along those lines. I've got some great stories here about some failed bids for the Olympics that just really make you think, wow, I wish the Olympics had gone there. Great venue ideas that would have definitely been a great visual sight watching the Olympics. But it's a fun chat here. And I think you're going to learn a little bit more about the bidding process, as well as just where we are at currently right now in modern times about cities bidding for the Olympics. Have recent bids, Brisbane, LA. Paris, changed the way the Olympics will be awarded in the future. And Robert gives a great insight into this as well. So sit back, relax, and listen to our chat with Robert Livingstone.
BEN WATERWORTH: Such a special interview coming your way today on Off The Podium. As all our listeners would know, we have plenty of interviews on this show, often speaking to Olympians and athletes and learning about their journeys and everything else in between. But part of what we want to do on this show is also learn outside of the athletes. We want to hear from the officials, we want to hear from the commentators, we want to hear from the journalists and everyone else who helps cover the amazing event that is the Olympics. And today, we have a very special guest in the form of the man behind the great website that is gamesbids.com, a website that helps track in terms of Olympic bids and gives up-to-date information on cities that are bidding for it, sporting news and everything else in between. A great website that I've been following for many, many years. And the man behind that is a man by the name of Robert Livingstone, who has been around for plenty of times, is a member of such societies as the International Society of Olympic Historians, the Olympic Journalists Association, has carried the Olympic torch and has been featured in a large amount of media talking about the Olympics over the years. And I'm so pumped to learn more about this journey, about how he started to where he is today. Robert, welcome to Off The Podium. It's a pleasure to speak to you.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Well, thank you so much for having me.
BEN WATERWORTH: Now, now a weird thing about sort of you being on the show today is that our paths have crossed in the past. And it was funny when I reached out to you for this interview, you mentioned how our paths had crossed, that you interviewed me a decade ago, I want to say, whenever it was about the Hobart Olympic bid, which, as I just said to you off air, I would think you would have remembered me about that. So I feel this is a long time coming. Did you just kind of ask a quick question? What did you think of the Hobart Olympic bid, Robert? I want to kind of hear from an expert what your thoughts were on this little little joke that went too far.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Well, you know, we we cover every bit from the grassroots. We don't want to miss anything. I mean, that's the point of why we exist, because everybody knows who wins the bid, you know, seven years later or however much later it is when the games are actually hosted. But nobody knows what happened in the background. So we cover everything. So as soon as we hear any kind of hint of anything, you know, we'll grab on to it, we'll cover it. So we heard about Hobart, and, you know, it's a fair game. What did I think about it? Well, you know, maybe a lot early for its time. I mean, I'm sure there's maybe one day it'll get there, but certainly not ready for prime time yet.
BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah, that's a very solid way of explaining it. I like your positivity. Maybe one day. I keep saying that it's just recycling around Australian cities. So now that Brisbane's got its chance, then we'll go to Perth, then Adelaide, then it has to come to Hobart, kind of just based on the size of the cities in the country. So one day we'll get there eventually. But I'd love to sort of hear sort of how you got started in terms of this fascination with Olympic bids in the Olympics, because it's a very niche sort of market. It's not just a website on the Olympics, it's Olympic bids, which, I mean, are very fascinating in itself outside of an Olympic. So how did this journey begin for you, Robert, to sort of games bids and how you eventually got to that point?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Right. Well, you know, I was studying in university, studying business and economics. I was writing a paper at the time on the Olympic bid process. This was in, I want to say, 1990, 1989, when I'm in Toronto and Toronto was preparing a bid to host in 1996. So at the time, information wasn't as readily available. No internet. You know, even going to the library would be a long shot to find information on bids. There was nothing out there. So quite a lot of work to study and find out information. I did interview a lot of the stakeholders. That kind of thing, to finish my paper. You know, then Toronto lost that bid. But fast forward, Toronto was bidding again for 2008. And I want to say that it's about at this point, 1998 when, or 1997, when someone came to me and said, hey, you know, why not put your information on the internet? That was when the internet was just becoming a thing, you know, World Wide Web, it was before Google. I think maybe Yahoo had just started. I don't know what was going on then, but you know, hey, put that online and do that. And I built a website to publish some information. I thought, hey, great opportunity to put some real time news up there as well and keep it current. Nobody was doing anything like that in journalism at the time. Nobody was putting up new material, new journalistic material. And I was kind of a pioneer in not just the Olympic industry, but any industry. A lot of people just were confused. Couldn't figure out what I was doing. I guess I was a bit ahead of my time. And, you know, Toronto lost that bid too, but there were a lot more bids to come. So I just kept going. And, you know, here we are. I've covered every bid since, I guess, really the first one I dug into was 2008, that Toronto bid, but every bid up until now, 2032. We saw the last one awarded to Brisbane.
BEN WATERWORTH: Exactly. Yeah, which we're still celebrating in this country. Can I just say that? But you mentioned about sort of writing that paper. I mean, was there always sort of a fascination around the Olympics, sort of the bid process, everything around it? And did it really come down to that fact, as you were saying, that the information wasn't that readily available around the bid process, essentially, that people couldn't really sort of find out about it at the time?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Yeah, it was just a collection of my interests. So I'm a big Olympics fan, big sports fan growing up. So I had that. And I obviously was studying business and economics. I like to dig deeper, and I was always interested in things behind the Olympics, what made it tick, the organisation of it. So that kind of was the inspiration to this paper that I had to do. And that's what I did. And it just further enhanced my interests when I actually dug down and found out what really was going on, which was far more than I expected at the time.
BEN WATERWORTH: And in terms of the papers were received, did it lead to much more in terms of what you were doing? Did it get what you achieved out of it, I guess I'm basically asking?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Well, it was course material, so I want to say I got a good grain on it, to tell you the truth, I don't remember. But it was well, historically, or moving forward, a lot of people read it because I uncovered some information that just wasn't out there, and that's why people asked me to put it online. That would be a good idea to expose it to more people. So yeah, it was well received in that way.
BEN WATERWORTH: That 96 bid that you started on was very fascinating. Of course, the Centenary Olympics, everybody assumed it was going to go to Athens. It ultimately goes to Atlanta. But as well as Toronto bidding, as you said, Melbourne, of course, bid for that Olympics. I think it was the second in a row that Australia bid. Brisbane beforehand, lost that one. Bid then for 96. Melbourne lost that one, eventually gets it in Sydney for 2000. But just quickly in terms of Toronto bidding, what was the mood like for Canada bidding for particularly a Summer Olympics at that point, given that at that point it was only 20 years after Montreal, and so many people associate the Montreal Olympics with not really good things afterwards and what it did for Montreal and Canada. But was it a popular bid? Were people getting behind it despite the negativity surrounding the Montreal Games?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Well, as any bid goes, there were two sides to it, right? So a lot of people were very much behind it, a lot of business, a lot of sports fans. There was a lot of excitement, definitely. It was also one that began the growth of the opposition movement. There was a group, I believe, called Bread Knot Circuses, which evolved, which fought against that Olympic bid and went on to fight against other bids subsequent to that. So it was kind of the birth of that that we saw grow throughout the last two decades with almost any westernised bid that kind of evolved. But definitely it was a bid that all of Canada got behind. There was a lot of excitement. Yeah, sure, in Montreal, people were still paying the bills for those games. Of course, Toronto said they had it all figured out, and we wouldn't be seeing those huge bills here in Toronto, but who's to say what would have happened? We didn't win for those games, obviously. As you mentioned, they went to Atlanta, and they had to deal with that. But yeah, I think there's still a lot of will in Canada to win another summer games. Probably, realistically, we'll be seeing a lot more winter games here before we'll see another summer games. I know Vancouver is trying to get those games in 2030. And here we are. I think we're a winter country, not a summer games country moving forward.
BEN WATERWORTH: Again, I think from an Australian perspective, and we often talk about this when we say have Canadian athletes on the show, my co-host Colin is based in Winnipeg, so we often get the Canadian perspective on that side. But yeah, it's generally on the outside, it's a winter country. That's what we think of. But I know during Tokyo, talking about the performances and how well Canada did, I feel things are slightly changing. And as I mentioned to you off air, I lived in Victoria, and such a summer hub for so many sports there. So it always fascinates me that a city like Toronto has never hosted the Olympics. There are some cities in the world to me that are just a shame that they've not hosted the Olympics, and Toronto is one of them. So do you feel that should the Summer Games return, or when the Summer Games return to Canada, that Toronto is that city, that that's where they will be?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Definitely. I think Toronto is the only city in Canada that really has a capacity to host the Games, even putting Montreal into context. Had them having hosted the Games, Montreal is not the city it used to be, and Toronto is not the city it was back when Montreal won. So I think a Games going to Canada would come to Toronto. You know, we have a kind of an inferiority complex, being so close to the United States. You know, it's kind of like our big cousins, and we want to do the same thing that they're doing. But, you know, in recent years, we've kind of lost that. It's like, well, you know, maybe we don't need to host the Olympics. Maybe we can do other things. So I'm not sure that, you know, it's going to happen so quickly here. But if it does, yeah, it's definitely Toronto.
BEN WATERWORTH: In terms of when you're starting up the website, as you were saying, sort of in the late 90s, kind of something that wasn't really well out there in terms of, you know, what people are using the internet for, were there methods for tracking and kind of working out sort of, you know, who was coming to the website, the hits and that, and sort of what was it like back sort of in the late 90s? What was kind of your audience? And were you sort of getting what you were hoping for? Did it take off more than you thought it would, given that you had such a unique market share that you were having at that time?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Yeah, it was definitely different than I had expected for sure. You know, originally, it was covering Toronto's bid. But just by doing that, you also look at the bids that Toronto's competing against. You have Beijing and some of the other cities that we mentioned. So there was mostly that limited audience. After the Toronto bid was finished, Beijing won. Moving on, the next bid was for 2010. Vancouver winning that. But then there were other cities involved. Suddenly, our borders expanded. Other places were interested in what was going on. And to be honest, most people confused us for being an American website, as often happens being here in Canada, we're confused. And it didn't bug me, but our audience grew. I think one of the things that helped our growth was our discussion forum that we launched back then, specifically to talk once again about Toronto's bid. But it grew from there, and we gathered quite a big audience when discussion forums were just growing. They were just born at that point, becoming a thing, before other social media existed. So it was kind of the only way people can go online and discuss these things. They came for the forums and stayed for the news kind of thing. And that's where we got a lot of exposure, and that's where our growth kind of exploded. And that's not what I had expected at that point. And we've been growing. We have our ups and downs, depending on who's in the bid race, what countries. Are they English-speaking countries? Are they able to consume what we're reporting? Also, when the games are on, people have more interest. They think about, okay, who's next? Who's coming up? And then they tune in to our websites. So we have our ups and downs, and the overall trajectory is up, but in a zigzag way.
BEN WATERWORTH: Did it fascinate you that so many people were in to finding out about the Olympic bids and the process around? Because again, as I said before, it's sort of a very niche aspect of the Olympics to kind of have that. But I mean, there's obviously an audience out there that people are fascinated, as you were saying about, well, where are the next Olympics and kind of the process around that? I mean, it must have been unique to kind of meet these people and see that there is an audience out there for this.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I knew that there would be definitely interest. Just what I found locally offline, I knew there was interest to see what was going on behind the scenes. And it was just basically trying to link it up with the more mainstream interest of the Olympic Games, getting people, you know, connected, connecting with people that way and then drawing them in to what actually happens behind the scenes. And it was interesting to find out how little people knew about what was going on behind the scenes. They thought, you know, most people don't know about the Olympic Games until about two months earlier when the television stations start advertising. And they go, oh, it's, you know, it's coming up in Tokyo. Hey, or, you know, you know, the winter games are coming up soon, that kind of thing. But very few people know that it will be in Italy in 2026, the winter games and that kind of thing. And more interest grew when people realised, hey, you know, these things start a lot earlier than we know about.
BEN WATERWORTH: One of my earliest Olympic memories as a kid was when Sydney won the Olympics. I was only six years old in 93. But it still was one of these memories that the publicity, the excitement that this brought to the country and everything along those lines. And it is such a unique process. So the Olympic bit and kind of just that celebration when it's announced and kind of you see the wild scenes in a city. And obviously, we'll talk a little bit more about that later in the interview, how that's obviously changed and not quite the same as it was. But I mean, people do really get caught up in that. And I can imagine sort of when you're covering the Toronto bit and sort of the lead up to that, that there's just that level of anticipation and excitement. I mean, Toronto was second in that bit, if I'm not mistaken, to Beijing. So you got to the final round. So, I mean, can you sort of describe it from somebody who's covering, you know, your home city's Olympic bit and try to, I guess, sort of not get caught up in that excitement and then ultimately that feeling of getting so close, but unfortunately missing out on the final vote there?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Yeah, I mean, definitely a lot of tension. Interestingly, my exposure to that Toronto bit was a lot less in subsequent bits because I was able later to cover them more as a journalist. That Toronto bit, I didn't have the same, I guess, opportunity there, but as just a regular kind of person, a lot of events leading up to it, a lot of excitement. A lot of people really didn't understand, even up until the time of the vote, they didn't really understand how the vote works. It's kind of like, they're going to tell us today whether we win or not, kind of at that level. And it was definitely a lot of tension. I remember going up to that Toronto vote, knowing pretty certain that Toronto wasn't going to win because at that point it was pretty certain that Beijing had it locked up. But the average person didn't know that. So for the average person, it was like, hey, we got a shot at this. We might win it. We want the Olympics. And this is a big deal and something that's going to transform your city for the next seven years. And I think that's what's lost on a lot of people. It's not about two weeks, not about three weeks, not about just the Olympics and the Paralympics. It's about your city changing for the first seven years. Lots of meetings happen, lots of construction happening, lots of new opportunities for your city, lots of exposure in the media. But also what happens after the Olympics. More events are in your city. You've got more venues that you can enjoy, that you can use. There's so much that goes on beyond the two weeks that people don't understand. So it was kind of that momentum, as people began to realise, hey, there's a lot here that we can get, a lot here we can win. And, you know, here it is. Here's our chance. It's happening now.
BEN WATERWORTH: One thing I absolutely love about Canada in terms of the three cities that have hosted Olympics, it's just you can't almost escape the fact that each of the cities have hosted the Olympics. I remember when I went to Calgary, it's in the airport. They've still got the mascots in the airport. They're celebrating it. Montreal, you know, I went out of my way to go out to the Olympic Park. But like, as soon as you're there, it's like you just can't escape anything. And Vancouver as well, I mean, you know, you've got the cauldron still there downtown and everything along those lines. And, you know, I've been to a few Olympic cities around the world, but I don't really know if Canada has, you know, been topped in terms of embracing it. I mean, even Sydney, it's sort of, you've got to go to specific areas to kind of see it. Melbourne's maybe got a bit more, but it's just so unique that the embrace that Canada clearly has and the pride that they still share for those three cities that host the Olympics. I don't know, Robert, if you've been to many, you know, or what cities around the world you've been to that have hosted Olympics, but is Canada kind of unique that sort of they hold that pride and want to show it off to the world that these three cities hosted an Olympic Games?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Definitely, we embrace it here in Canada. But I think other cities, I think to be fair, a lot of other cities around the world do the same thing. Even some cities that haven't hosted the Olympics. I mean, I remember when Istanbul was bidding for the 2020 Games, they showed us their Olympic Stadium that they'd already built. And I remember looking at the sidewalk, and they had the Olympic rings engraved, you know, in metal monuments in the sidewalks. They were anticipating hosting the Games, so they already embraced it. I'm sure there's other cities like that too, but certainly around the world, any city that's hosted the Games, or at least most of them have those monuments. Even in Tokyo, from the first Games that they held in 1964, a lot of those monuments were still there when they were bidding a game for 2020. Just thinking through to other cities, I mean, yeah, definitely Canada is a big one, but Canada is not unique there.
BEN WATERWORTH: I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to visiting a city that's hosted. I kind of go out of my way. I remember when I went to Salt Lake City, and I'm like, I need to see everything, and I got taken to the venues and everything. I went to a jazz game, and I was more excited for the fact that that was the venue where Stephen Bradbury won Australia's first ever Olympic gold medal. I didn't really care for the basketball. I'm like, Olympic history was created in this year. Everyone fell over. He won us a gold. This is the greatest venue for Australian winter sports. I kind of maybe do seek it out, Robert. Is that normal? Do you do the same thing? Please make me feel better about that.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Yeah, definitely. I've had the opportunity to see a lot of venues. Obviously, I toured the cities as they're bidding, and some of them are former cities. When I was in Los Angeles, almost every venue I went into there was like, wow, this happened, that happened. So you're not alone. Don't feel bad. It's something to get excited about.
BEN WATERWORTH: I like that. I like that. What's it like getting that opportunity to visit these cities and kind of get a behind-the-scenes tour of seeing, you know, what could be should they host the Olympics? I mean, that must be sort of a very interesting aspect of what you do.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Yeah, that's definitely my favourite part. You know, when a city is bidding, getting those behind-the-scenes tours. Obviously, the IOC members are there, and they're priority as far as the tour they get, but we kind of follow them along. And yeah, it's a very unique experience. It's not available to a lot of people, so I feel very, very special that I have that opportunity, and it's my favourite part. Looking at venues, the kinds of things that you've never been exposed to before in other countries, sports that I've maybe never seen before, and here's the venue where it's competed. I think to most bids in at least the past decade, I've been to those cities. I skied on slopes where Olympic gold medal is won, as we just discussed moments ago. And I'm not a skier, so it was tragic for me, the way I handled it, but I was there, I got to experience it. It's definitely something special.
BEN WATERWORTH: Now on that, and I don't know, given the uniqueness around the 2032 bid and obviously the current climate, did you get a chance to come to Brisbane? And if not, is it a plan to get to Brisbane to check it out when you eventually can?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Yeah, I didn't get a chance to go to Brisbane. Obviously, the timing during the pandemic was not ideal. And it was a different kind of bid than we were used to over the past couple decades. So, no, there was no opportunity to go to Brisbane. Sure, if I have an opportunity moving forward, I'd love to take advantage of that. And I'm sure, you know, I mean, I plan to be at the Games, but that's 11 years from now. So maybe I'll have a chance before then.
BEN WATERWORTH: We'll talk a little bit more about that shortly, but just a two-part question. And you don't have to name cities if you don't want to, Robert. I mean, I'd love you to, but in the grand scheme of things, I don't want to get you into trouble. But have there been cities that you've gone to that have bid, and you've gone, like, what's happening here? How is this a bid? And just kind of questioning it. And on the flip side of that, have there been cities that you've gone to that maybe didn't win the Olympics and it surprised you because they would be a prime city to host an Olympics?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: I find that most cities that I visit that make it to that point in the process where they're having the IOC do an inspection and I go there, I find most cities are capable. So I don't find any that are not realistic. I mean, I'll try to come close. I mean, bidding for the 2022 Winter Games, it was Beijing against Almaty in Kazakhstan, and it was really exciting to go to Almaty. I mean, so I went to Beijing as well, and we know they can handle it. They did the summer games and, you know, I guess I'll start with Beijing. The concern with the winter games is that there was no snow there. So they showed us ski slopes in February, and there were no snow on them, and they were going to make the snow, and that's kind of concerning. But whatever, China, they had their snow viking machines, and they were ready to go. So we had that. I went to Almaty. It was really interesting, exciting place. You know, they had their ski junk venue in the middle of the city. So literally, you could be sitting, looking out your hotel window, watching the ski jump. It was insane. There were so many really cool things about that place. And it was a very unusual place. I mean, not the typical place you'd go to. I thought it would be a great place to host the Olympics, but just didn't have the confidence that they'd be able to build this huge park that they were planning. That was kind of the scary thing. And I think that's why at the end, Beijing won, whether they had snow or not, is that people had the confidence that Beijing would be able to pull it off. So that's one example of how you look at things and they look one way, you think they might turn out another way, and somehow it works out at the end. But like I said, most cities at that point are capable. They show you, they give you a tour, and you're pretty confident that this could happen. It might not be the best, it might not be the worst, but somehow they're going to pull it off.
BEN WATERWORTH: I want to say skate jumping in the middle of a city. That would be crazy. That would be just incredible. I mean, people are talking about beach volleyball underneath the Eiffel Tower for powers, but no, screw that. I want to see ski jumping downtown in Milan. Like, come on, make it happen.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Yeah, it was definitely something to see there.
BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah, that's absolutely insane. I'd love for you to explain a little bit about the Games Index part of the Games Bid website, so the Bid Index section, I should say. Because this has always been something that has fascinated me. I've always kept an eye on it sort of in the lead up to bids. I mean, how does that work? How are scores calculated when it comes to this percentage, this chance of the bidding cities being selected as the host cities?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Right, so when we did that, and you're probably aware that we haven't done that in the last couple cycles because of the way things have changed, but when we did do it, we had a number of categories that seemed to impact the way the games were chosen. So we would find that there would be some factor that would be common among all the winning bids. For instance, I'll give you one example, public support. The IOC always does public support polling ahead of the games, and they publish the results. So we would put that into our index and see, is there any significance here? Do we see that every city that gets over 80% public support wins? For instance, something like that. We found that it really didn't make a lot of difference, to be honest. Now, if a city scored really low, there was a bottom threshold, and we found that below a certain level, pretty much if a city couldn't achieve a certain level, it wouldn't win. It would lower their overall score. But if it was over that, it really didn't matter whether they scored 70, 80, 90. It would all be the same. They wouldn't have an advantage. So we plugged that into our index. We had up to... It varied because we changed it as time went on, but we'd have up to a hundred different factors. Anywhere from the radius of the venue footprint, how close are the venues, is that important? And it was. We found that some of the spread out venues would lower the score, lower the chances. Trying to think of other ones that might be. One important thing was the global distribution. So if it was held in Europe, the summer games, the chances of the next summer games going to Europe went down a bit. And if a certain continent hadn't hosted in a number of years, their chances would go up a bit. We'd put all these into an engine, churn it and see what would come out. And the results were, you know, our index, which was pretty reliable.
BEN WATERWORTH: Five out of eight, I believe you correctly predicted, didn't you? Five out of eight?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: I don't have that number in my head.
BEN WATERWORTH: I've got it in front of me. Five out of eight, I'm seeing here that you correctly predicted. That's pretty solid.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Yeah. And I think it was more about not predicting the winner, but predicting if it was realistic to expect that the bid was in the running. So some of them are really low. And we'd say, yeah, okay, they're probably not going to make it. And normally you'd see that anyways, just by a cursory review of that bid. But it was more of, hey, this bid's scoring high. It has a realistic chance because as we know, it comes down to a very subjective vote. So we're trying to put some kind of metric around something that's subjective, which is very difficult. But we found that there was some correlation, so we did it. And a lot of people tracked it.
BEN WATERWORTH: Well, I was going to ask, given that you're in that unique position of being the only real source out there, is that something then that I guess the media are going to follow, they're going to go to Gains Bids and go, well, this is currently the favourite based on this score. And outside of that, do the IOC look at it? I don't know if they can look at it or obviously probably wouldn't affect their decision. But how far does that go out there in terms of affecting public and IOC opinion?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: It goes, it went pretty far. When it was, you know, I'd say about a decade ago, when it's sort of at the height of its, I'll say popularity, it was a key metric that new stations would use to whenever an update went out there, it would be the headline story in that city. And I'll think back to the US Bids most specifically. I remember a moment when New York was bidding for 2012, and we released some numbers. Now, the numbers were very unfavorable for New York generally, because there are other big bids around that time. New York just wasn't the right bid, and it was losing on a couple of friends in the bid index, so the score was low. And I remember the, when we released our numbers, and New York, I think, was fourth or fifth out of five for the bid index, that the Deputy Mayor of New York was standing outside City Hall, and the press was crushing down on him, asking, why was New York doing so badly? And he said, no, New York's doing great, but then they counted and said, well, it's doing poorly on the bid index. And he said, you know, and rightfully, he said, well, our voters don't look at the bid index, or we're voted on by the IOC and not by an index, which is true, but, you know, as it turns out...
BEN WATERWORTH: It's like a politician saying, I don't look at the polls if I'm unpopular, right?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Exactly.
BEN WATERWORTH: Shove it aside when that happens, but when they're popular, it's all about the polls.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Right. So New York did do poorly in that election. And then when Chicago came around for 2016, same kind of thing. Whenever we released the new bid index, it was the top story in Chicago. How are we doing? We're doing better, we're doing worse. And it almost seemed like it was the tail wagging the dog, if you've heard that expression before, where the bid had to react to what we were publishing. And often they were trying to get ahead of the story, and I would get calls from bid committees in advance when you were releasing your next bid index and how are we doing, so that they would know how to handle the publicity and the fallout after it.
BEN WATERWORTH: Fascinating, fascinating, which just on that, I mentioned before about cities around the world that are surprising that have not hosted. New York's, to me, the number one on that list. I'm a massive fan of that city, and I remember following that so closely in the lead up to 2005. I think I'd signed up to be a volunteer. I'd done everything to stay up to date with that bid, and I was so devastated that it did so poorly. Is New York a city that, on paper, should have hosted an Olympics by now, but it's maybe a city the way it is will never host an Olympics because it is obviously a very unique city in itself?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Yeah, I think the biggest problem in New York is that the Olympics would be lost in that city. There's so much going on already that you put an Olympics in that city, and it just kind of disappears. The problem with that particular bid is they were trying to do too much. They were trying to build too much, trying to change too much, and it just didn't make sense. I guess the motives behind that bid were a little suspect as well. I mean, there were a lot of developers who were really pushing for it, and the stadium that they were trying to build was related to their NFL football team, right? So the people pulling the strings there really didn't have the best intentions as far as the Olympic Games, and I think that was quite obvious to IOC members. Not necessarily obvious to the general public, but at the end, I think the IOC saw through that, and the stadium deal was lost just weeks before the vote, which kind of made the whole thing fall apart.
BEN WATERWORTH: They got MetLife eventually, so they got their stadium. It just wasn't in Manhattan where they wanted it, right? So I mean, it was kind of in a different area. I mean, I mentioned before, five out of eight, that the bid-in got correct, but on the three that were wrong, you still got second on both of them. So they were for Vancouver, you had Salzburg as the number one there. For 2012, you had Paris ahead of London, and then you had Pyeongchang ahead of Sochi. But each of those cities were kind of, I guess, second on those. So I mean, when that sort of comes about, I mean, just are you cheering for the ones that you got at number one to go like, our system's flawless or something along those lines? How does that affect, I guess, your personal opinion, Robert, on how those cities are then chosen?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Well, there's definitely some satisfaction when we get it correct. I wouldn't say I'm rooting for that to happen necessarily. I mean, it's just interesting to see how these play out. I will say when London won for 2012, they basically won that on the final hours before the vote was taken. I mean, Paris was leading that end to end, except for maybe two hours before when the Prime Minister, Tony Blair, was basically campaigning directly to IOC members, you know, moments before the vote. And it was said that that was what pushed London over the top. So our final bid index, I think, was published maybe two or three days before then. So, you know, I'll take some credit that, you know, maybe things changed after that. But, you know, otherwise, we're just, you know, I just, you know, I get some satisfaction that our index is working. But, you know, I don't root for the cities necessarily.
BEN WATERWORTH: You've seen a lot of changes in the whole Olympic bid process throughout your career. I mean, sort of, you know, you talk about Olympic bids in, I guess, the 90s and sort of early 2000s. There's a lot of, I guess, negativity, sort of, you know, how they were handled. People remember the Salt Lake bid and everything along those lines and kind of all the controversy around those types of bids. Right through to today now, where, obviously, with Brisbane, we've just seen them award an Olympic Games basically unopposed 11 years before they host the Olympics, never heard of before. I mean, kind of, has that surprised you, sort of, the change, or is this sort of the route that you feel the Olympics needed to try and keep the Olympics sustainable? It's all about sort of adapting to the times, whereas one day the Olympics were sort of the pride of a nation. Everyone wanted to host them, and now it's obviously adapted to a point where it seems so many cities don't want to host them. So you've got to kind of adapt to how that works.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Well, you know, it's an evolving process, and it seems to keep repeating itself. So, you know, you go back to Los Angeles bidding for the 84 Games. They were, well, I want to say they were unopposed, but you had Baghdad actually opposing the LA and then Baghdad dropped out for 84. So LA was unopposed negotiating for those games with the IOC, and they won them. Nobody wanted to bid for those games. Why? Because Montreal went way over budget because of security issues that happened with the tragedy of Munich. So suddenly there were no bidders, LA. But then LA changed everything by changing the model, using venues that they had existing, so lowering their costs and also starting a new sponsorship program. So they were actually able to make the games profitable, which made the games interesting again for other cities to bid. So then suddenly more cities started bidding. It became more and more of a competition. Seven, eight, nine, as many as 11 cities bidding up against each other. But then what happened? They started proposing new venues they wanted to build. Costs went up, and then it got too expensive again. And then the numbers started dropping. So the bid process has kind of changed along the way. And then we had the vote buying scandal in 98, which was because there was such a high demand for cities to host the games. They were willing to spend money like that unethically. So when we started, when GamesBid started, that's what was being dealt with. And the process was not transparent at all. There was, like I mentioned before, there was no information out there. It was very hard to get information. So we were just starting to get that online. And we were working to build up that transparency. My fear is now, over the past couple years, the IOC president, Thomas Bach, he didn't like this competition. He's had battles that drive up the costs. So he's kind of pulled back the process, has made it more quiet, more behind the scenes. They've decided that they're only going to choose one city to consider after discussions behind the curtains, and then have the IOC membership vote on that one city, and that was Brisbane. Brisbane was the first city chosen that way. My fear is that the transparency is gone once again, and they're going to end up in this cycle where we don't know how a city has been chosen. We don't know if it's ethical, you know, what's going on here. So we're back where we started, and it's interesting it keeps doing this.
BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah. One thing, I mean, it's great that Brisbane got the Olympics. Don't get me wrong. Obviously very happy as an Australian, glad to kind of get the Olympics back here. And as we've said a lot on this show, sort of a unique aspect that twice in a lifetime, we're going to have the Olympics in this country, which is for a country like Australia, kind of not something we've experienced before. But I miss the pizzazz. I miss the sort of the process. I miss kind of that excitement. I mean, I mentioned about Sydney getting hosted in 93, the excitement. I mean, it was exciting here. Don't get me wrong that Brisbane got the Olympics. But the day it was announced, it wasn't like it was a surprise. It was just like, OK, we'll just rubber stamp what we already know. So do you miss that? Do you miss it, Robert? Kind of just the excitement, the lead up? I mean, because the thing to me is, well, I liked is that you have an Olympics every two years, obviously summer, then a winter. But in that odd year, you would always have the city chosen for seven years in the future. To me, it was almost something Olympic every single year. So, yeah, do you miss that whole pizzazz and excitement around a bidding process? If this is how it's going to be now?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Definitely. I tweeted a day or two before, you know, Brisbane was officially elected. I said, are we even going to see an envelope open? Because, you know, you always have that iconic moment where the IOC president opens the envelope, lifts up the card, announces the name, and everybody cheered. And he did. Thomas Bach, he did open an envelope. He lifted up the name, Brisbane 2032, and there were, you know, I think there were four of them there who cheered. The delegation cheered. Obviously, there's a pandemic going on. So it's a little different that way, too. But there's it's not just even that moment. I mean, that's a great moment. It's always exciting being there. The tension. I mean, I've been through it in the press room often. That's, you know, to the side of these auditoriums where they do the election. And even the media, the journalists are like, you know, they're nervous, they're sitting there. What am I going to write? What's going to happen? And a lot of them are from the countries that are being represented. And in the press room, everybody cheers whoever, you know, is on that, you know, supporting that city. You know, that's all gone. The colour you get from the articles that are written, you know, it's all gone. Even the big campaigns themselves, they produce videos and they produce all kinds of things. Presentations, events, that's all gone. I mean, that was a big part of it. I always thought that was a big promotion for the Olympic movement itself, and it was free publicity for the IOC, for the Olympics, that, you know, these five, six, seven cities are spending two years promoting the Olympic Games in their city, having an event, having events, having athletes talk about it. That's all gone. And in fact, we just we don't even know when when Brisbane was announced as the preferred candidate. I think it was February. They didn't say like, OK, next month, we're going to announce who the preferred candidate is. It just sort of was a press release. Hey, today we chose Brisbane as preferred candidate. And anybody on the inside knew that that Brisbane would be hosting the 2032 Olympic Games. There was no doubt at that point. So it was all gone. It was all just, you know, it's so it is a huge disappointment that this part, this element of the Olympic Games seems to be gone. And I don't know that will be gone forever. I think there'll be a demand that it could return at some point in some way. But right now, it's just it's disappointing. And you know, people have forgotten that we haven't even chosen the host of the 2030 Winter Olympics yet, but we already have a host for the 2032 Olympics two years later. So when's this Winter Games going to be selected? Maybe tomorrow. We don't know.
BEN WATERWORTH: Wake up. Vancouver's got it again, everyone. There you go. Breaking news.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: It's possible, right? So it's the element of this anticipation and excitement is just gone.
BEN WATERWORTH: Because again, it makes your job a little bit more difficult, because again, back to that cycle, you would know that, you know, on a standard sort of, you know, how it is that in 20, I mean, we should be this year, obviously, if things are normal, that we would be choosing the 2028 hosts, of course, in normal times. But I mean, yeah, because now obviously, seeing on the website, you've got sort of talk of, you know, Russia potentially bidding for 2036. I know Indonesia wants to, like, again, how do you know that all of a sudden that 2036 will be announced before 2030? It must make your job a little bit more tricky.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Oh, definitely. It's a lot tricky. It used to be very predictable because the kind of the two year bidding window always had specific deadlines that were mapped out way in advance. So, you know, I know this would happen. This would happen. This would be published. These decisions would have made when. And it was much easier to track it and report it. There would be a lot of travelling involved. I travelled to these meetings to cover them on the scene. There's no opportunity to do that now because there's no way to plan it. It's, yeah, it's very difficult. And it's difficult for the cities themselves because they don't really know where they're standing. And that's one of my biggest complaints about the new process is that a lot of the cities themselves who were bidding, who are on the inside negotiating with the IOC, they were caught off guard. They didn't know where their bid stood. And suddenly they heard that Brisbane was selected. And, you know, you had a bid from Germany. You had a bid from India. You had bids that you mentioned from Indonesia, from Qatar, from, you know, other cities as well. And, you know, they were caught off guard. So how do they even plan? That's one of the biggest complaints.
BEN WATERWORTH: With Brisbane, in terms of just the awarding of the games, I mean, kind of what was your view on Brisbane being chosen? I mean, obviously, it was, as you said, chose as sort of the preferred candidate early in the year. So it wasn't really surprised. But when initially the cities were putting their hands up to bid for 2032, you mentioned Germany, India, Indonesia. Was it a surprise that Brisbane got it? Did you think Brisbane was the best option? I mean, kind of just your general viewpoint on Brisbane being awarded the Olympics.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: So I have every confidence that Brisbane will be able to do a great job. I have no concern about the bid itself at all. It goes along with, I think, what the IOC is expecting. I just, the way it was chosen was a little suspect because, and I guess this gets a little political because, and you know, my readers will know my feeling on this, but you know, you had John Coates, who's the president of the Australian Olympic Committee, also IOC vice president, and he's the one who designed the whole bid process. And he was designing the bid process while Brisbane was actively pursuing and bidding for the Games, and John Coates was representing that bid. So, I mean, I don't have to explain that any further, but there's a bit of a conflict or a lot of a conflict of interest there. And you can't, I mean, it's hard to believe that the other cities involved were happy about that at all. You know, if there is an inside track there, that's fine. And if that's the IOC, you know, they're an independent organisation. They could choose their bids any way they like. That's okay. And if they chose Brisbane, that's okay. But I think there's more transparency needed. I think they should say, hey, this is the direction we want to go to the other cities, say, we don't need you to bid this time. We've decided that we're going to go with Australia. But it wasn't really presented that way. It's presented as a fair race, which doesn't seem to be the case. So, you know, once again, I'm sure Brisbane will do a great job, and I'm sure it was a great choice. But the way the IOC led the process just wasn't right.
BEN WATERWORTH: What would you like to see with the Olympics? I know the World Cup sort of almost does it on a regional aspect. So essentially, it's sort of, OK, South America's turn, it's Europe's turn, it's Asia's turn, things like that. Would you like to see the Olympics adopt something like that, where, say, like 2032 maybe was the turn of Australia, so it's got to go that region? Because, I mean, you mentioned before about, say, if Europe had a summer games, they're maybe not going to have the next winter games. But right now, we're having three Asian games in a row with Pyeongchang, Tokyo and Beijing, so that's clearly not an issue anymore. But I mean, would you like to see something like that similar to what the World Cup does in adopting a regional, so everyone gets a turn basically?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Yeah, I think for the Olympics, it's different. Informally, that's what they had been doing when they had the opportunity to do that. They would have it hosted in one continent, and then they'd look elsewhere for the next one, and then they'd look elsewhere for the next one after that. But their choices became limited. So the reason why we had three games in Asia in a row was mainly because that's what was available, the good choices that were available at the time. I mean, certainly for the winter games, the choices are a lot more limited, so you can't do that kind of continental rotation. For the summer games, there's more of an opportunity there, but it doesn't necessarily make sense. I think the idea there is just to spread it around as much as possible, but at the same time, don't make risky decisions. I mean, they made the one example is Rio. I mean, there was a big push to get games in South America, and they did it, but things didn't work out too well in Rio. And maybe that wasn't the right choice. It's hard to say, because at the time Rio's economy was, when they were elected, Rio's economy was much better, and things went sour after that. But it's hard to push it. Africa's never hosted an Olympic Games. Are they ready? Maybe they're not. So maybe this continental rotation or formalised process isn't the right thing.
BEN WATERWORTH: You mentioned about the regional aspects of a winter and a summer Games. Realistically, Australia never hosts a winter Olympics, but we kind of are. Brisbane is going to be held in winter in Australia, so I'm saying it, we are hosting a winter Olympics in 2032. Which is, I love the fact that they go along with that page, because obviously Sydney was in September, sort of October, our spring, so it was closer to that. But just quickly, obviously it's a question you probably get asked all the time in terms of in a bidding process, because you have preferred Canada, or who do you think is going well? But just on 2030, I mean, with who's sort of putting their hand up right now, we've obviously got Barcelona, Salt Lake, Sapporo, and Vancouver. I mean, how do you think that's tracking, and how do you think kind of things are going to affect that? Will Los Angeles having the Olympics in 2028 affect Salt Lake's chances, or even Vancouver's chances? Will Tokyo having the 2020 Games affect Sapporo? And how's Barcelona tracking in terms of maybe the second city to host both the summer and the winter Games?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Yeah, I mean, it's really complicated because the first thing I'll say is it appears that Salt Lake City will be hosting either in 2030 or 2034. And the negotiation there isn't between Salt Lake City and the IOC, it's between Salt Lake City and, as you mentioned, Los Angeles, because, you know, a city gets a window of opportunity for sponsorships and their ability to raise sponsorships and their promotion period is four years long. If we have LA in 28 and Salt Lake City in 2030, there's 18 months between them, there's going to be overlap. And if they're both looking for sponsorships, especially domestic ones, they're going to be fighting against each other and there will be some sponsorship fatigue, so they won't be able to raise as much money. So they would have Salt Lake City would have to make an agreement with LA to do something. I'm not sure what that would look like. Certainly, it would be easier for Salt Lake City to host in 2034 for that reason. But there might be interest for the IOC to have them host in 2030, and I know Salt Lake City wants to do it earlier. Having said that, the competition there, so Vancouver, they're interested, but there's definitely nothing locked in at this point. You know, they might have a referendum, for instance, and, you know, Calgary lost their referendum for 2026. There's no saying what's going to happen in Vancouver. There's even city council is split on on to whether they move forward with that. And you look at Sapporo, does Japan really want to host again after what they just went through? I know in Sapporo, the city, they're interested, but, you know, they're also talking about a public vote there, and we don't know how that's going to go. I mean, that's definitely not a sure thing there. In Barcelona, there's some politics involved. I know that they want to move forward, but it's a there's different clusters there, obviously. There's the city proper for the ice events in Barcelona, but then the skiing events, the snow events are held elsewhere, and there's some conflict over, you know, which region is going to get priority. There's politics there, I'll put it simply. So I don't know how that one's going to turn out. There might be other cities, too, that come forward. But, you know, the only thing certain is, I think Salt Lake City is going to get one of those, and then whatever the IOC can find to fit the other slot, that's where that one will go.
BEN WATERWORTH: One I'd like to quickly ask about sort of on a multi-sport event, but outside of the Olympics, it is still fascinating that there is still no decision made. Is it 2026 Commonwealth Games? Now, that's a whole other interview in itself talking about the Commonwealth Games process, of course. But Hamilton obviously put their hand up for 2030 to host the Centenary. They kind of said, OK, well, maybe we'll host 2026. I believe that was shot down by the Council over concerns about the fact that the region is sort of hosting World Cup games in 2026 for soccer. Is there any development on what is happening with 2026? Because we're now less than five years away, and it seems like no one wants these games in 2026. What's happening with the 2026 Commonwealth Games?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Well, I've reached out, not in the past month or so, but recently to both the Commonwealth Games Federation and also stakeholders here in Canada, because there's some interested bits here. And from Commonwealth Games, they say that there are cities interested, but I've never really heard any names, and I haven't seen a lot of activity. I know they're having some changes in their leadership at the Commonwealth Games. They've had some changes in the past couple months. So things are in flux there. But definitely you're right. Time's running out. The clock is ticking. I know in Hamilton, they suggested that they could do this in 2027 if the Commonwealth Games was willing to delay a year. And I don't think that the Commonwealth Games wanted to do that. They might have to. I don't know. I mean, from what I know, maybe that's the choice they make. There are cities putting their hands up for 2030, so that could still be on track. But for 2026, 2027, I don't know. I think they need to be a bit creative. I think Tokyo has shown us that you could change the date of the games, and it can be figured out. I know in the past, there's been hesitancy because the global sports calendar is very complicated. It's very intricate. So you move one part, you got to move other parts, and summer qualifying events. So it's not so easy. But if you have to do it, maybe you do it.
BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah, it's fascinating because one thing that always has baffled me is, I guess, you talk about the select areas that can host an Olympics. I mean, Commonwealth Games, it even gets it's lesser. Obviously, we're meant to see Durban next year, and sadly, it ended up not happening, so it's gone to Birmingham. But it's the rotation around these countries that baffles me that Canada has gone so long now since 1994, and then New Zealand have gone since 1990. Australia has hosted twice in that time. England's about to host it twice. It's Canada and New Zealand's turn to host a Commonwealth Games. So Hamilton surely has got to get one and give it to Auckland, give it to Wellington. I want to see the sharing around of the Commonwealth Games.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: I think in Canada, there's just been some bad luck. I know Edmonton was... They were in the hunt for those 2024 games, or 2022 games, sorry. But they rely on oil revenue and the oil prices crashed. They had to pull out their bid. Also Halifax had been bidding for the 2018 Games, I want to say, when they had to pull out. For local reasons, they had to pull out. So just the timing's never been right. But yeah, I mean, it's time for the other countries to step up.
BEN WATERWORTH: I remember when I was just before I left Victoria, there were sort of whispers about them putting their hands up again for 2026, because I know they put their hands up last minute for 2022 when that kind of all got pulled out. And when I moved to Victoria, the only thing I knew about Victoria were they were the host of the 94 Commonwealth Games. So it was kind of interesting there. But yeah, come on, people. Let's Canada get the Commonwealth Games again. Couple of things I'd like to just kind of find just from a personal standpoint for you. I mentioned in the introduction, you got the honour of carrying the torch back in Sochi. What was that experience like? And how did all that come about? That must have been a pretty incredible experience to get to carry the Olympic torch.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: It was definitely. It was a big moment for me, for sure. And it was very interesting, too. I mean, they sometimes journalists are selected or given the opportunity to carry the torch. I was offered. They offered me different cities where I could potentially do it. And none of the big ones are on the list. So I kind of got the smaller, less popular locations, I would say. So I ended up carrying the torch in Siberia. And it was quite a it was quite a journey to get there. It was a very, very remote location where people only primarily spoke Russian. So it was hard to communicate. I had no friends or family. So it was very isolating. But at the same time, it was very interesting and very exciting. And, you know, it's really hard. If you haven't done it, it's very hard to describe. You know, you're at that moment, you're carrying the Olympic flame. And being in that context made it even more special. So I was very honoured and it was very exciting. And thank you for asking about it.
BEN WATERWORTH: And did you keep your torch or did you purchase it? I know you get the opportunity to purchase the torch afterwards. And I can imagine you don't let an opportunity like that go by, do you?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Yes, definitely. I did keep it. And it was very tricky bringing it on to the airplane, getting through customs and that kind of thing. People wondering what is this? What are you doing? Why aren't you checking it? I didn't dare check it because I didn't think I'd see it again. But yeah, it was... Yeah, I kept it and it's on display.
BEN WATERWORTH: It's nice. I also have an ulterior motive for asking you that question, Robert, because I'm starting the Ben Waterworth Carrying The Brisbane Torch 2032 campaign. I had the honour of carrying the Queen's Baton for the Gold Coast, but sadly, you can't keep that. That's one that you share around the world. So I'm just putting it out there, start a little questions and starting the campaign, because I want that. I'm never going to be an Olympian. Maybe I can carry a torch one day. That's my go-to.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Yeah, something to look forward to, definitely.
BEN WATERWORTH: And on that page, too, as I mentioned in the introduction, a member of the International Society of Olympic Historians and the Olympic Journalists Association. Two-part question, what's it like being part of these great groups? And the second part, how do I join? I want to join these, Robert. Come on, it sounds like a cool club to be part of. What do I have to get off the podium to be important enough to be recognised by the International Society of Olympic Historians?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Yeah, there's a lot of members in that, mostly people who do writing in the context of Olympic history, I guess. And I cover the bids and historical significance and that kind of thing. I'm sure you can apply.
BEN WATERWORTH: I'll start writing an application.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Look them up. The Olympic Journalists Association, I think, has recently disbanded, unfortunately. So I was part of that for many years. Basically, people who saw each other regularly at Olympic Games and Olympic events got together and formed that group. I don't know that it's still operational, but I was a member of that as well.
BEN WATERWORTH: Have you actually been to the Olympics when they're on? Obviously, you get to go to the big cities in the lead up, but have you had the opportunity to go to the Olympics while they're actually happening?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Oh, definitely. I'm very disappointed that I had to miss Tokyo for the pandemic. It made it difficult for me to do the job. A lot of the great journalists there that went there and had to follow all the restrictions, they're covering specific sports events, right? So they're able to go to the venue and cover what they need to cover. For me, I like to go to all the different venues and look at the background and see what's going on, talk to a lot of people, and it just didn't make sense for me to go. I figured I'd leave room, more room for the other journalists there and give them their space. And unfortunately, I had to miss it. It was very disappointing for me. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Beijing. I don't know what's going to happen. Things are getting a little scary, but we'll see. We'll see. And in the past, yeah, I was accredited first for the 2010 Olympic Winter Games in Vancouver. One of the very first websites that were accredited, actually, because back then, I mean, prior to 2010, if you were a website and you wanted to get an accreditation, they would just laugh. You weren't considered serious journalists. So yeah, in 2010, it was quite a surprise that I got accredited. And then ever since then, I've continued to be accredited.
BEN WATERWORTH: You're living my dream, Robert. You are living my dream. I mean, I'm hoping by 2032, podcasts won't be laughed at. But in all seriousness, I mean, my day job is a journalist. So I've, you know, I had the pleasure of working at the Gold Coast Commonwealth Games. So it's sort of, yeah, I'll get some tips off air for you how I can join that circuit. Two final quick questions. Two, I'm sure that you probably get asked a lot, but I'm going to ask them. I'm going to be the cliché guy. What has been your favourite Olympics? Be it that you've attended or maybe growing up watching or anything along those lines. What to you is your personal favourite?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: You know what? I don't. I've never really figured that out. I'm not trying to dodge a question, but I mean, there's so many elements of different Olympics that I've liked or haven't liked. I mean, definitely the first Olympics. I mentioned Vancouver in 2010. It wasn't the first Olympics I was at, but the first that I covered as a journalist and on home soil. And it was the first time a Canadian won an Olympic gold medal on home soil.
BEN WATERWORTH: And you won a few more than one of those Olympics, too, of course.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: That was definitely a special moment. Very exciting. Yeah, we just, once you opened up the bag, they wouldn't stop coming out. So, you know, I also was in Montreal during the Olympics in 76. I don't want to date myself, but I was there as a younger person. And, you know, I remember so many games on television watching them, and all of them were special. I have many memories. I can't pick one specifically. So, yeah, I enjoy them all.
BEN WATERWORTH: Well, this might be tricky then for your last question. And I'm going to bar you from answering Toronto, because I'm assuming that would be your probably go-to answer. Is there one city that if you right now, you know, Thomas Bach gave you the power, said Robert Livingstone, you can choose any city in the world that can host an Olympic Games. What's the city that you would like to see host the Olympics the most?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: OK, you got me on that one too. Let's see.
BEN WATERWORTH: Maybe these aren't questions you ask all the time. Maybe I'm being unique. I like this.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: I'm just trying to think back. I mean, there's so many cities. I'm thinking of bids that didn't win. You know, there's a lot. In the US, I mean, Chicago bid for 2016. They had a lot of good ideas, but I'm trying to think of a city that you wouldn't necessarily expect the Olympics to go to.
BEN WATERWORTH: Hobart. Say it, Robert. Give me some hope.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Well, I've never been there, so I can't.
BEN WATERWORTH: Trust me, you can't hear you. Oh, he was well out of his depth there.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: You know, I mentioned Elmati before. That would be really cool to see the Olympics there. Just as a, you know, something that you wouldn't expect. And then you get to see the ski jumping in the middle of the city. So there's that for the winter games. For the summer games, you know, there's, I don't think there's one right answer for that. I can't even think of five right answers.
BEN WATERWORTH: You can say Toronto. All right, I'll elapse the rules there.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: But I don't agree with that. I really don't. I don't know if Toronto is really right now the right spot for it. I don't think it would get the support that it deserves here in Toronto at the moment. Maybe 10, 15 years ago, but right now, I don't think it's the right place. So I'll be honest about that. But there are a lot of other places that would probably want to host that may not be, you know, people might not expect them to. And, you know, like I said, Almaty is one of them. You know, Istanbul was really interesting. I saw their plans was really interesting, but I can't imagine Olympics in Turkey right now, you know, that kind of thing.
BEN WATERWORTH: I was going to leave it in Istanbul because what have they lost? Like five bids in the last 20 years? Like it's kind of there. They seem very keen, Istanbul. I just, I feel like it's kind of as a case of keep on trying and eventually you'll get it.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: The persistence awards definitely have to go to Istanbul. And the other one is from decades ago is Detroit. They bid six or seven times, lost every time. And you know what, if I had to make a surprise announcement, if Bach gave me that power, it would be interesting to say, hey, okay, give it to Detroit, see what they can do with it.
BEN WATERWORTH: What about Denver? Do they deserve it after they pulled out? Was that 1980 that they got them and then went to Lake Placid?
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: 76.
BEN WATERWORTH: 76.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: I still don't think they want it there. So I think that's a non-starter. You know what, they did try again to get in the running with Salt Lake City for the next, in the US, I think it was Salt Lake City and Denver and Reno Tahoe. I can't remember where else. But I really don't think they want it. They're trying, some people are trying, but at the end, I don't think the people there want it.
BEN WATERWORTH: I loved Denver when I was there, and it was kind of a city that I could see easily hosting the Olympics. But I mean, having said that, one of my favourite cities in the US is Salt Lake City. It is such a great city, and yeah, they get 2030, 2034. I'm on a plane already to go there and actually see an Olympic Games there. Robert, it's been so much fun chatting with you today. Plug the website. Tell people where they can go to Games Bids, and also for yourself if people want to follow what you're up to, any social media that people can check you out on.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Right. So the website obviously is gamesbids.com. There's two S's in that. People often miss one somehow. So gamesbids.com. You might want to visit the forums. We mentioned that earlier. So there's a link for that. You could just click it or do gamesbids.com/forums. You can follow me on Twitter. It's at and it's Livingstone Backwards. So I'll say it's Inotskineville. But if you want to spell that, it's just Livingstone Backwards. I don't know why I chose that, but I did several years ago. Or you can follow us at GamesBids. And can't think if I've missed anything. That's pretty much it. So yeah, I look forward to seeing some follows. And thank you so much for having me on your show. I've listened to some of your podcasts, so it's always interesting to hear what's going on.
BEN WATERWORTH: That's where our listener came from, Robert. There, I can pinpoint it. Great, there they are. You're it.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: We're the Canadian hit.
BEN WATERWORTH: There it is. I appreciate it. Robert, absolute pleasure having you on the show, mate. Best of luck with it all. And yeah, we look forward to following all the progress on GamesBids and seeing you in Brisbane in 2032.
ROBERT LIVINGSTONE: Looking forward to it. Thanks again so much.
BEN WATERWORTH: And a massive thanks to Robert there. Very insightful chat, learnt a lot. And I can't recommend gainsbids.com enough. Not just because I'm on there, I'm sure if you dig through the archives, you can find cheesy interviews with me back in the day during the Hobart Olympic Bids stuff. But it's just, it's a great website. I've always enjoyed reading it. And Robert's been one of these people that have always been on the radar for somebody to get on the show. So fantastic to get that done and cannot recommend following the gainsbids website as much as I can right now. We're keeping up the trend of speaking to, I guess, more behind the scenes people from the Olympics or media people from the Olympics. Because our next interview is a big one. Particularly if you are an Australian listener, an Australian Olympic fan, you're going to know this person very, very well. Joanna Griggs, who of course has fronted numerous Olympics over the years on Channel 7. Seven, to be precise. Tokyo was her seventh Olympic Games that she was able to cover. And a lot of people probably don't realise that Jo was actually an athlete herself, a very prominent swimmer in the late 80s and early 90s. Actually won a bronze medal at the 1990 Commonwealth Games. And a series of events that occurred in her life prevented her from ever competing in an Olympics. But it's a fascinating story that if you actually hear about her swimming career, how good she actually was, and the potential that she had to go on to great things at the Olympics if it wasn't for a few events that happened in her life. So it's a fascinating chat. I'll spoil this now. So this is our longest interview we have ever done. And you won't want to miss a single second of it. It is great. It is funny. It is insightful. It's inspiring. Everything else under the sun. And you're going to learn a lot about her career in terms of the athletic side of things. You're going to learn a lot about her broadcasting career. We even bring up the fact that we like to make fun of Channel 7, and Joe has a bit of a talk about that. And I'm saying this right now. You will hear the greatest story you will ever hear in your life about the legend that is Mr. Bruce McEvaney. So stay tuned for that. That is our next interview on Off The Podium. Please do not miss it. I'm telling you now, you will enjoy every single second of that. And in the meantime, to stay up to date with everything that we've got going on here on Off The Podium, you can hit us up on the social media channels Off The Podium. Search for us on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook. And of course, subscribe to the channel on all the good platforms. Amazon Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Apple Podcasts. You know them. They're all on there. And you can also subscribe and leave us some feedback. We'd love to hear what you think along the way. Thanks again to Robert for his time. Thanks again for you for listening. My name is Ben. This is Off The Podium. And we'll speak to you next time. Good night.
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