Kieren Perkins Interview
It's time for arguably one of our biggest ever interviews today as we sit down with the icon that is Kieren Perkins to learn more about his incredible career and legacy he has left on not only Swimming in Australia but also for the Olympics too! We find out just why he wasn't the most sporty kid growing up and how a freak accident helped set a path for him to his incredible and record breaking career. We also learn which other legendary Australian sporting icon helped give him a boost ahead of that famous race in Atlanta and just how he was able to cope with his vastly different Olympic experiences at each of the events he attended. Added to this we find out what he thinks about a unique idea we have to involve him in the 2032 Brisbane Olympics and whether or not he still writes his name on his milk. It's one epic chat that you simply can't afford to miss! So get to listening to avoid disappointment!
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Please note this is an automated transcript that may contain errors.
BEN WATERWORTH: It is Off The Podium, an Olympics podcast coming to you today for another athlete interview, a massive, massive interview for you today. We are speaking to the one, the only Mr. Kieren Perkins. Now, for any Australian Olympic fan, the name Kieren Perkins automatically is someone who everybody knows, four-time Olympic medallist, back-to-back gold medallist in the 1500 metres in 1992 and 1996. And of course, the event in Atlanta, arguably the greatest swimming race Australia has ever seen when it comes to just overall Olympic performances. And this is a great chat with Kieren going over a lot about his career, talking about the unique way that he got into swimming, some fun little things about a certain famous sponsorship deal that he had in the 90s that I'm sure kids of my age or adults of certain ages would remember that advertising campaign. Also talks a little bit about being involved in the Sydney bid team and a unique story around that race in Atlanta in 1996. A certain another fellow Australian high-profile athlete who just happened to be in the crowd and gave him a bit of a talk and how that helped him potentially go on to win that gold in that very, very famous race back in Atlanta. This is an amazing chat. You're going to get a lot from it. Here is our chat with Australian Olympic legend Kieren Perkins.
BEN WATERWORTH: I'm so excited to welcome our next guest here to Off The Podium. If I was ever to start an introduction and say, our next guest needs no introduction, it would probably be this guest, but I want to give him an introduction because I love reading out some of these things that he has achieved in his career. Three-time Olympian, four-time Olympic medallist, 11 world records set in his career. The first person in history to hold the Olympic World Commonwealth and Pan Pacific titles simultaneously, all at the same time. That's what that means, Ben. That's why I'm saying that. Held the world record in the 1500 metre freestyle for nine years, in the 800 metre for 10 years, and five years in the 400 metres. A young Australian of the year, and most importantly, the first person I think I've ever interviewed who wrote his own name on his milk. It is the one, the only Kieren Perkins. Kieren, pleasure to have you on the show. Welcome to Off The Podium.
KIEREN PERKINS: Thank you, Ben. Absolutely great to be here.
BEN WATERWORTH: It's one question I've always thought that if I ever got to interview Kieren Perkins, I have to ask, do you still write your name on your milk?
KIEREN PERKINS: No, but I do. I can't tell you how often I do get asked about it. And it's especially in the southern states, because, you know, Pure was a milk brand that at that time wasn't strong up north. So now living in Melbourne, I do get it a bit. And I find myself, you know, I'm a company man. I can't help it. But I still buy it if it's available.
BEN WATERWORTH: I actually, as a kid, drank it purely because of your sponsorship. So it worked. The sponsorship worked. I remember seeing it at the supermarket, and I'm like, Mum, Dad, that's that drink that Kieren Perkins drinks. Can we drink it? And we got it.
KIEREN PERKINS: Well, thank you. I'm glad to hear that. And it was a long relationship. I was with Pure for, God, it had to be 12, 12 or 14 years or something. Which, you know, for a swimmer whose career was around, well, international career anyway, was about 10 years. It was a good one. So thank you very much for your support.
BEN WATERWORTH: Well, thank Pure as well for producing some great milk. And people should go buy. Pure Light started there. Local supermarkets, wherever it is sold. But the thing that I always love, sort of whenever I read about your journey and your career, is how it started. The fact that you basically had an injury as a kid. You ran through a plate glass window. And to help you rehabilitate, you took up swimming. So, I mean, is it that simple? Is that how it all started? Had you done any swimming before the accident? Or was it a case of, no, this is how it all started?
KIEREN PERKINS: So I had been, well, I had learned to swim before the accident. And growing up in Queensland, swimming was just, it's a thing that we all did. In fact, while I could save myself and paddle around before I joined school, when I joined school, you know, end of January, first PE lesson, it was swimming. And that was when I really sort of learned to swim. And used to just play around at school a little bit doing that. But the accident, after it happened, I had to do the rehab in the water because I'd severed my left calf muscle completely. And my parents started taking me down to the local shallow heated pool, which was a learned swim school, the John and Caru Learn to Swim School. And that is what connected me with the sport. I think before then I just did it like I did every other sport that I was involved in. When you're nine, eight, nine, five, six, seven, you do it all right. You play cricket because everyone else is playing cricket. Then when it's time to swim, you go swimming. So I started doing that rehab, and in the afternoons, the squad would start as I was finishing. And I don't know, I just saw the kids in the squad, and they looked like they were learning and enjoying themselves. And so after my rehab was complete, I asked my mum and dad if I could stay. And that's when I started training with Mr. Caru at nine years of age. And I was a 28-year-old father of two at the time when I retired, and he was still my coach.
BEN WATERWORTH: Wow, what a relationship. That's fantastic. What were some of the other sports that you're saying you played? Were there any other potentials? Could we have seen Kieren Perkins a champion in another sport? Had things gone a different way?
KIEREN PERKINS: Absolutely not. No, I have no hand-eye coordination to speak of. I can't run to save myself. I think in many ways, where that story pertains to it being lucky, is that I think if I would have not found that environment and swimming, I don't think I would have continued on with sport in any serious way as I got older. Even today, I look back at it all. I don't count myself as a sporty guy. I'm not one of those kids that every lunch hour had to be out running around kicking a football or playing whatever game was going around. In high school, you would have more likely found me in the library playing chess with my mates than playing sports. So swimming for me was definitely a very unique thing.
BEN WATERWORTH: Which on that page then, what you're saying, I mean, it wouldn't sound like maybe you paid much attention to say the Olympics when they were on. Was this something that kind of only became a goal when you got more into swimming? I mean, was this something that you would still at least paid attention to the Olympics as a kid and thought that would be cool at least?
KIEREN PERKINS: Like every Australian, when the Olympics is on, of course you pay attention. I think again where timing played a bit of a part for me, the 82 Commonwealth Games in Brisbane was a big deal. I mean, everybody in Southeast Queensland, the country, but especially Southeast Queensland, we were so engaged with those Commonwealth Games. And my mum and dad managed to get us tickets and we went to a couple of the swimming events. And then we also got to go to the closing ceremony. And if I'm honest, that was kind of the one where I connected to that type of sport and that level of sport internationally. And from then on, I was a lot more interested in it than I'd been before that. And the timing from a swimming perspective worked as well, right? Because 1980 Australian swimming did well in Moscow, but there was always that kind of, well, the Americans are boycotted. I mean, there was a lot of people who didn't go because of the political situation. And so while it got attention, it probably wasn't a big deal. But then one of my first swimming memories is John Sieben in Los Angeles in 1984 winning and Laurie Lawrence doing his crazy on-deck celebrations. And so by that time, I was well and truly into it.
BEN WATERWORTH: When you were progressing through the ranks, I'm always intrigued to sort of see what gets swimmers into the distance events. So ultimately, 1500 metres is what you're best known for. But was it a case of that's just how physically you worked? You worked better towards the more distance events? Were the coaches kind of spotting this and were telling you, look, you're a better distance swimmer, this is what you train for? Or was it just something about it that appealed to you and you kind of focused on that?
KIEREN PERKINS: Look, I think the progression just means that there's a natural selection element to it, right? Like you start off and you do the short events like everybody does. And the reality for me was I was not successful at those. I was never a school-age champ or, you know, somebody that even Mr. Crew used to look at and go, geez, he could be a great swimmer one day. You know, I was just one of the group. And as you get older, you sort of, you do longer races and longer races and longer races. And, you know, for me, because I wasn't successful in the short races, I didn't get kind of caught in the, I love these and this is all I'm going to do. So I was happy to explore the longer ones. And, you know, by the time I did my first 1500 at 13, I think I was, I guess I'd sort of reached that point where it became obvious that actually, while I didn't have great all-out speeds, I could just keep going. And distance was definitely the thing that worked for me. So, you know, many of my swimming mates had just said that, you know, I kept going till all the smart kids stopped and I eventually won something. But, you know, it was clear that that was just, that was just where my capacity was. And, you know, and I must say, I did enjoy it as well. You know, I think one of the things, like I always remember as a kid doing sprint races, and it just felt like you'd, you know, you close your eyes, you hold your breath, you throw your arms around as fast as you can and sort of hope that it goes okay. Whereas the distance races felt like more of a, you know, you felt more engaged with it, right? Like there was tactics, there was the race would evolve, how you feel would evolve. Because, you know, for me in a sprint race, I never really felt like I burned up everything that I had in me, because the races just weren't long enough for the capacity I had. So the distance races did connect with me as well, but you could probably argue you tend to enjoy something that you're successful at a little bit more than the stuff you're not.
BEN WATERWORTH: Yes, yes, that's a very good point to make. It's interesting, we talked during Tokyo when the 1500 was on, that someone of my generation growing up watching you and then watching Grant and kind of just kind of expecting to be dominant in the 1500 metres, that was kind of just the thing. And it was sort of more of a case, I feel, of people of my generation that we were more into the distance swimming, because that's where we knew it was going to come, where maybe it's sort of a little bit differently, particularly say in the men's side of things now. So it's kind of interesting, because I like the strategy. I like that kind of element of the 1500 metres, that you're going to sit down, you're going to watch it. And then I saw an interview with you just before I started this interview, where you were talking about the importance of, say, the middle 500 part of a 1500, and not just going out in the beginning and going in the end. So all those strategic elements, which makes it, would you say maybe the most unique event on the swimming calendar, that kind of, you know, there's strategy more so than it is on those shorter distances?
KIEREN PERKINS: Oh, look, of course I'm going to say yes to that. Again, my sprint mates would probably argue the point. The 400 medley, of course, they're all unique. I think the thing that really makes, you know, connects the 1500 to Aussies, firstly, we've been successful in it generationally, right? Like, since the early Olympics in the early 1900s, we've done well in distance swimming, and you throw names like Murray Rose and John Conrad's, and, you know, as you mentioned, Grant, myself, Steve Holland. Like, there's a long history in it, so we've always had paid attention to it. But I have to say, I think, in general, Australians, for whatever reason, we actually just... We do love longer sport. Like, what person in their right mind thinks test cricket is a great idea, that you could play for five days and it ends in a draw? But Aussies love it, right? AFL, you know, for 20... Is it 25 minutes, wherever the longer the quarters are? You know, they all stretch to 30 plus with injury time. But it's a fast game, you know? It's not like American football, where they actually only play for 40 minutes or so, but because of the stoppages, it goes for much longer. Like, Aussies love intense, extended, you know, evolving competition that has its ups and downs. And we love an underdog too, right? And the longer the race, the more you get to see the underdog sort of fight back and come through. So I just think it connects with the Aussie psyche for whatever reason. It's always been a part of who we are. It is a shame that, you know, we haven't maintained quite the same level of superiority as probably we historically have. But that said, you know, the guys did really well in Tokyo. And I think, you know, we're not far away from finding ourselves back at the top of the tree again, which would be awesome. But you're right. I mean, this current crop of swimmers, you know, a lot more talent in the sprint and form stroke space, which, you know, we'll never complain about because it's always great to see an Aussie win either way.
BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah, well, I was going to mention about the generational thing. I think kind of the way it has happened that obviously, you know, the 50s, kind of 60s obviously worked well, Melbourne 1956, then kind of the 90s, the 2000s worked well for Sydney. So now it's kind of a bit of a low. But then, you know, we've got 11 years to get it back up to scratch again to keep that up, you know, three home Olympics in Australia's history, three gold medals in the 1500s.
KIEREN PERKINS: That sounds like a very good goal.
BEN WATERWORTH: Yes, you can take that. You can take that on board. You might have some connections in swimming Australia. But obviously, your first international major international competition, the Commonwealth Games in 1990, World Champs 91, then your first Olympics in 1992 in Barcelona. When you kind of again, progressing through those ranks, you break the 15-minute barrier in Auckland, and then go on to ultimately smash the world record in Barcelona. Was this something that mentally you just always thought this was achievable? Was it something that kind of surprised you at sort of the succession it sort of came? Or as an athlete, is it just you're always striving to do your best, so you're going to take what it comes along, and you're striving to be the best in the world. So of course, that's what you're aiming for.
KIEREN PERKINS: Yeah, look, I mean, it's a little bit of everything, but fundamentally, you're right. As an athlete, there is just this thing where you are always pushing to succeed and do better. You know, I often tell people that, you know, and comparing it to my day job now, you know, you look at, like I think about swimming, and every time we raced, we'd get out of the pool, and we'd talk. The first person that you want to talk to and that you needed to talk to was your coach. And you'd kind of have this three-step conversation, which was the initial celebration about what worked really well. Then you'd talk about the bits that didn't go great. And then you'd have a conversation about what you wanted to fix and how you wanted to fix it. And from that point on, the how you were going to fix it agreement, that was the only thing you talked about. You never went back. I never, as a kid or as an athlete, rewatched my races. I was there. I know what happened. And Mr. Crew and I had had the conversation immediately after the race when it was all fresh and worked out what we were going to work on next. And then what you're working on next becomes your whole context. And so you're always striving to improve. You're always pushing yourself forward. You're always, you know, evolving. Where I think, for me, there was probably a bit of a step change as a young athlete. I came into the sport at a time when, you know, we didn't have a consistently strong program. We had a couple of pockets of success, but in general, swimming in Australia was in a little bit of a funk. And, you know, at those Commonwealth Games, or the trials for those Commonwealth Games, which were in Adelaide in late 1989, in the heats of the 1500, Glenn Haussmann broke the world record, broke 15 minutes and broke the world record. Now, you'll never find it in the record books because the timing equipment failed, and he was never actually certified to have swum that race, but every single person that was at the pool saw it, and we absolutely know that he did it. And the thing that was extraordinary for me watching that is, here I was watching someone in my race, the 1500, achieving something which I had been brought up to believe was impossible. Swimmers in Australia leading into that believed breaking 15 minutes for the 1500 was impossible. And seeing Glenn do that, I mean, it just blew me away, right? I remember going back home after that, and I managed the next day to come third in those trials and get selected for the team. But I remember going home after that, and it just played on my mind, this thing of, I didn't think anyone could break 15 minutes, but I saw Glenn do it, and it wasn't like it was Superman or some, you know, otherworldly thing. It was this guy from Rockhampton that I'd seen on pool deck hundreds of times before who was just normal. And that changed my mindset, my perception about what's possible. And I do think in terms of those turning moments or those significant moments in your life when you kind of come to realise something, that was a real turning point for me because after that, I never allowed myself to be bound by what other people thought was or wasn't possible.
BEN WATERWORTH: Which then come Barcelona when you smash the world record yourself, go 14.43, beat Glenn by more than 10 seconds. I mean, in the space of a couple of years, things change a little bit. I mean, that must be a pretty special feeling to then think back to that moment when you witnessed that and then all of a sudden, you're the one creating even more history.
KIEREN PERKINS: Yeah, look, it did all happen very quickly, really. I mean, you know, and if I'm honest, while there was definitely physical improvement over that time, you know, you're a teenager, you're growing, you're learning, you're constantly evolving. But, you know, I do think in many ways that that kind of mindset shift was one of the biggest differences in how I was able to perform and get the best out of myself under pressure. And you're right, it did happen really quickly. I mean, looking back on it now, I swam in, I think it was like around April of 89 at the Age Group Championships in the 1500 freestyle and won in like my best time at the end of a 14, sorry, 15 minutes 41. And, you know, just over two years later, I was winning an Olympic gold medal in record time, almost a minute faster. I mean, it's just, you know, it happened. It did happen quick.
BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah, I mean, it's just you think about these magical barriers in so many different sports, and, you know, you think of the 10 second barrier in the 100 metres. I mean, you know, there's not, you're never going to get a five second, you know, 100 metres. You're not going to beat that by five seconds. So, I mean, it's just, it's an insane thing to kind of think. And then just seeing like as it keeps progressing along the way, I mean, it's kind of scary to think that where could the time go in 2030s? How much lower can that time go?
KIEREN PERKINS: And look, it's the forever question, right? Like, I remember talking to Murray Rose and, you know, just awestruck by the legend that is, that was. And I remember him commenting on, you know, my world record. I think his world record was well over 16 minutes, I think. And, you know, him talking about the fact that, you know, I'm swimming so much faster. And as you say, you know, the current crop, like I watched the Tokyo Olympics, and all of the finalists got under the time that I won in Atlanta in the heat to make the final. You know, it's like unbelievable how it progresses and how so many people sort of keep pushing barriers and boundaries. And when will it end? I don't know. You're right. It can't ever get to zero. So there's got to be a limit. But like maybe the 10-second hundred, you do just get to a point where it takes a decade or more for someone to knock a hundredth of a second off it, and just that rate of progression slows. But there will always be a bigger, better, faster athlete coming.
BEN WATERWORTH: One more thing on Barcelona. Obviously, the silver in the 400 narrowly missing out on the gold. I mean, there's such a gap. As an armchair expert, Kieren, 400 to 1500 is more than a kilometre of difference. It's not like you're doing the 2 to 400. So how is it that you, I guess mentally, you miss out on a gold medal by that much, and then you've got to back that up, what, two days later to go in the 1500? I mean, do you just kind of use that disappointment of not getting a gold to spur on for the 1500? Do you take it as a celebration? I'm an Olympic medallist, so I'm going to use this adrenaline to go on towards that? I mean, kind of take us through, I guess, the mentality that went through your head from getting that silver to then going into the 1500.
KIEREN PERKINS: Yeah, look, it's one of those things that you develop as you progress in your sporting career, and it's the capacity to really compartmentalise things. So, you know, very much after that race, the 400 happened, and we'd had the medal presentation. I mean, by the time I got back to the village that night, it was done. You don't think about it again, because you're thinking about the 1500 and where you're going. And that capacity to kind of turn parts of your thought process or your brain off so that you don't go down a path of thinking to hold yourself in the here and now and to be focused on what matters most right now. It's a really, really important skill, and it is just one of those things that you develop. I mean, I also, you know, I didn't go into the 400 in Barcelona with huge expectations. I mean, I hoped I'd medal. I wanted to see how fast I could swim, because in many ways, at that point, you know, I treated it as a bit of a warm up to the 1500 as opposed to it being its own standalone race. And so, you know, I certainly wasn't disappointed after the fact in a way that affected me, but, you know, even still, by the next morning, I was too busy worrying about how I was prepping for the 15 that you just don't even think about it.
BEN WATERWORTH: That might be the best warm up I've ever heard, an Olympic silver medal in a warm up.
KIEREN PERKINS: Yeah, and look, you know, the thing that's really fascinating, because I look back on it now, of course, and go, man, I can't believe I didn't pick up that one. And with an air of frustration, because I don't think the gentleman who beat me in that one was what you would call a clean skin. So, you know, it was one of the frustrations that exists perpetually in sport. But, you know, it is what it is, and the silver medal is on the shelf. And, you know, I can certainly be proud.
BEN WATERWORTH: In terms of just Olympic experiences in general, we always like to hear from our guests kind of moments that you're experiencing. You obviously went to three different Olympics. Now, in the same interview I think I watched with you just before this, I heard you sort of talk about how it was maybe Sydney where you really started to soak things in and kind of, you know, realising that. But sort of in those first Olympics in Barcelona, is there any moment that you can just take a little side note and go, I'm at the Olympics. This is the peak of sport. Like, this is where I am right now. Or was it just so competition focused that it wasn't until those subsequent games that you really started to take notice of things like that?
KIEREN PERKINS: There's no doubt that as you get older, you become far more aware of the significance of the things that you're doing and more connected to it. So, you know, I definitely have more memory and enjoyed the Sydney Games more than Barcelona for that reason. But that said, don't get me wrong. I mean, there's moments like I remember in Barcelona being in the dining hall one night and just sitting there eating. There was a couple of us. And you're feeling like a real young rookie, totally in awe of the space that you're in. And I remember sort of looking across on the table that I was on, and Steffi Graf was sitting sort of just a few seats down that way, and Carl Lewis walked into the room at the back, and there was all this commotion. And, you know, there is moments like that where you sort of think, oh, my God, I can't believe I'm here. You know, the dream team, I mean, that was the dream team in 92, you know. And I remember being in, and this was after swimming in Los Rumbos one night, and, you know, Charles Barkley's walking through the middle of it, and there's just this hundreds of kids following him as he's walking through town. And, you know, the boat that they were all staying on, sort of sitting in the harbour, that everyone knew, that's where the dream team was staying. I mean, there was just stuff like that that you won't forget. But in terms of sort of the overall, it's still a lot of it is a blur. Atlanta, you know, for different reasons because of the stresses, I sort of felt with how that went. Probably also missed a bit, but then, you know, I remember I met Muhammad Ali at those games, you know, being in the home of Coca Cola and all of the just over the top pomp and ceremony that came with an American Games in Atlanta. Being in Centennial Park the night the bomb went off, you know, there was certainly some moments with those games as well. But I think the thing, you know, the difference that you point out, like at Sydney, it was more about the race, you know. Like I actually, as I walked out behind pool deck, I actually lifted up my head and had a look at the crowd and sort of took a moment to listen to it and just be and absorb the energy and be there. Whereas, you know, most all of the races at the Olympics before that, you know, there'll be little snippets here and there that I recall, but generally, you know, you just head down, focused on the water and you sort of don't really absorb too much of the context of what you're involved in.
BEN WATERWORTH: On the flip side of that, though, you talk about your first Olympics kind of being the young, naive sort of, you know, here are these superstars. But I can imagine by Sydney, you're a superstar in your own right. You're the reigning two-time champion. You're going to have people coming up to you and go, Oh, my God, it's Kieren Perkins. Like, I want a photo. I want to meet him. Like, is that distracting or like, do you just kind of know where you were at when you were kind of on the other side of that and just take it in your stride?
KIEREN PERKINS: Yeah, look, I mean, especially by that time, you know, I was well and truly in the space where it was just a fact of life. I'd been there for a long time and knew what that was like. And again, that compartmentalisation bit, because there's no doubt that being at a home Olympics, it escalates that quite a lot. You know, you go into the village in Atlanta or Barcelona and you walk around and no one knows who you are. You know, the security guards, the people serving the food, the shop assistants, the cleaners, like, no one knows who you are. And you just get on with your day. Where is it at home games? You know, every person that's opening a door, every person that's serving your food, every person that's, you know, cleaning the place, like, they all know who you are. And, you know, the energy and the good intent and good vibes that it brings, you know, it's interesting the impact it has. Like, for me, I took it as a nice thing, right? Like, I always, and worked out very young in my career, that you can't please all the people all the time. And so, you know, there's no point getting bent out of shape because somebody doesn't like you or criticises what you do, because you, you know, you just, you can't win. You can't ever actually change that. And the vast majority of people are actually really positive with lots of good wishes and will, because they support you, right? And so I always, you know, happily accepted that and recognised it was a part of it. And was very good at compartmentalising at that point as well. You know, I could get back to my room at night and sort of turn all that off. Whereas other guys did struggle with it. There's no doubt, especially some of the rookies, you know, being in that environment and having that much attention on them. As nice and as positive as it was intended to be, it still did create a lot of pressure.
BEN WATERWORTH: So it was really an interesting period in swimming. Again, something we talked about too during our Tokyo coverage was I don't know if there was ever such a period in swimming in Australia where you guys were probably the biggest athletes in the country at that point. Not to take away from, you know, our great swimmers today, but I'm thinking like you and Suzie like in the 90s, and then obviously when people like Thorpe, Hackett, Klim, you know, are coming along and kind of into the early 2000s. I mean, it was like you were the biggest athletes in the country at that point, bigger than any cricketer or footballer. I mean, it's interesting to hear that perspective that, you know, how you sort of take on that, because again, it just, I guess it comes with the territory that you kind of just have to kind of accept this. But at the end of the day, you've got a job to do, that's swim, and you're going to go out there and do the best you can, and generally the best you can is pretty darn good.
KIEREN PERKINS: Yeah, look, absolutely. And you know, I think the thing that's, you know, because now that I'm back involved in swimming again, it's really sort of fascinating getting into the nuance of it. And I think that there was, you know, there were some very significant differences in the environment back then, right? You know, firstly, there was a group of us who came through who I think had aspirations to be more than just successful swimmers, you know, the ability to commercialise your brand, to create those relationships with the public and corporate Australia. And it was all managed in a, I guess, a central type way, right? Like you talked about Piro, you know, Piro obviously saw the benefit in being able to engage an athlete like myself for promotional reasons, and I obviously enjoyed the financial benefit of being able to on sell my name, face and image. But it needed to be more than that, because it's not just about putting your picture on something. You have to, you know, do the events, engage with the public and all that sort of stuff. And that was a happy trade-off that we were willing to do, because we knew it grew our personal profile, it grew your personal opportunity for sponsorship. And those sponsors would promote you through all of the standard sort of media channels that existed back then. And so there was this sort of managed evolution and delivery. And I think at that point in time, famous people were famous because they did something that was noteworthy, right? Actors, musicians, sports stars, politicians, like you sort of broke through when you did something significant, and the machine started to promote you and talk about you and that created profile. You fast forward to today, and social media has changed the game dramatically. An individual can have 40,000 or 50,000 followers on Instagram, and they've got a commercial outlet. And I think for a lot of our athletes, the way that they're willing to engage with the public and think about the way that they need to promote their brands is very different. And because it's different, it doesn't end up driving the same mass appeal as what we probably had previously had. And it's something that the sport also needs to take responsibility for, because we've got to help these guys promote themselves beyond just driving a good Instagram following and earning them enough that they can swim without having to have a day job. Whereas we certainly pushed a lot further. But I think you're starting to see that a little bit with people like Ariane Titmuss, Kate Campbell, I think Emma McKean and Kaylee McEwan have certainly got opportunity now. There's a few names like that, which I think you're probably likely to see grow, especially because, for instance, Ariane and Kaylee, they're both 2021 at their first Olympics. They could have another 8 to 10 years of high profile success, and that'll create another era like we had in the 90s, potentially.
BEN WATERWORTH: I'm a proud Tasmanian. Love me some Ariane Titmuss. But I've got to say, her ads with Harvey Norman haven't had quite the same impact as your pure milk ad. So I'm just saying, like, maybe she needs to start writing a name on the ovens or something like that.
KIEREN PERKINS: Maybe, maybe.
BEN WATERWORTH: Keep selling it that way. One of your most successful meets, and I think we're really kind of after an Olympics, comes next to Commonwealth Games in 1994. Now, I was living in Victoria until earlier this year, and I went to the pool several times, because it actually wasn't far from where I lived. And every time I would just step in this building, and I was just like, wow, like, just think of the history. I'm one of those weird Olympic people that goes to buildings just to remember. It's like, I went to see a Utah jazz game, and I didn't care about the basketball. I just knew that's where Stephen Bradbury won our first winter Olympic gold medal. So that's why I was excited there. But I mean, what was that experience like to come from, you know, you've had the world at your feet, you're setting world records, Olympic gold medallist, and to just go in to a Commonwealth Games and come away with four gold medals, win every event you go in, I mean, that just boosting that confidence and just everything that you must have been feeling at that point.
KIEREN PERKINS: Oh, look, absolutely. I mean, it was it was an extraordinary meet and an extraordinary, too, because it sits in a funny place for Aussies, right? If you're if you're a swimmer, the most important event that you can ever win is the Olympic Games. And then probably the next most challenging meet you'll swim in is the World Championships. And then the one after that's the PAM PACs and then the Commonwealth Games in terms of what the competition level is going to be like. But then, because it's the Commonwealth Games, it's second only to the Olympics in importance, you know. So it's it's it's it sort of holds this weird, weird place for swimmers. And and so, you know, I mean, I went to I went to those games in Canada, knowing that two weeks after that, we had the World Championships in Rome. And the World Championships in Rome was where I wanted to swim my best because I was going to be racing the world, whereas the Commonwealth Games is going to be a good, good, you know, meet where you want to win and you want to do well. But it's more about the racing and the winning than necessarily the all out times and the and the ranking performances. So, you know, it was a in many ways, it was a ball that was just a I don't know. I didn't have it didn't hold the same pressure, I suppose. And so you just I just got in there and had lots of fun was the one and only international relay gold medal I won in the with the four by two hundred. And that was incredible to have the opportunity to swim in a relay at that level. You know, it was it wasn't awesome games and awesome. I think also, again, you know, as you say, the context of the environment, right? Like it was a great pool, but it was Canada and, you know, Canada and Aussies. We've got we've got that affinity, you know, where we believe in the importance of the Commonwealth and winning in the Commonwealth. But we're also, you know, the Antipodeans fighting against the mother country. And so, you know, you you sort of have that that that common desire when it's all said and done to make sure first and foremost you smash the palms. And then after that, we worry about beating each other, you know. And so the Canadians are always just great, gracious and great hosts. They love having us there and we love being there.
BEN WATERWORTH: And of course, Victoria produced a pretty good 1500 metre swimmer in Ryan Cochran, who kind of came a few years after you'd hung up the goggles there as well. Obviously, Atlanta, very famous. There's probably not a single question I can ask you right now that you haven't answered a hundred times. Is there anything about Atlanta that maybe hasn't been told or something that maybe you haven't really sort of told a lot about? Because I mean, it's just so etched in Olympic history for Australians that I can't imagine there's not a lot that you haven't discussed about it before.
KIEREN PERKINS: No, you're right. It is obviously one of those things that the people do remember. And you do, you know, I do get asked about it quite a lot. Look, I think it's a good question. I mean, I think for a long time, I probably haven't talked or mentioned much that it was the first time that I met Greg Norman. And he, I mean, the funny side story was that he was there. He bought a ticket in the public grandstand. He wasn't, you know, playing on the Greg Norman name. He just bought a ticket for him and his son in the morning to watch the heats. And they were in the grandstands. And of course, you know, the public recognised him. And he had this long line of people asking him for autographs. And one of the security guards who was actually near where the Aussie swim team was sitting, when asked our head coach, you know, hey, Greg Norman's over there and he's getting harassed. How would you feel if I brought him over here so he could sort of, you know, be in a secure spot? And of course, our head coach was a massive golfer. And yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that would be awesome. And I'm sure when the security asked Norman if he wanted to come over, he probably thought, oh, wow, this is awesome. Not realising that he'd spend the next two hours answering golf questions from our head coach. But he sat in the stands and he watched the racing. And then afterwards, they brought him down on pool deck. Something you'd never get away with now, like, you know, post 9-11, Centennial Plaza bomb. You know, there's no way in the world that some random, no matter how famous you are, can just wander on to a pool deck at the Olympics. But here he was. And I'd had a shocking heat and was, you know, freaking out a little bit about what I was going to do in the final the next night. And I sort of get to the pool deck, the warm down area, and there's Greg Norman. I was like, holy crap, Greg Norman. Because I'd never met him before. But you know, like every Aussie, you certainly know who he was. And we got introduced and didn't have long to talk because I needed to do my warm down. But it was one of those weird conversations that a couple of strangers who are connected by the similarity of what they do, you know, looking for a conversation, but otherwise having nothing in, like we didn't know each other were complete strangers. You know, we talked about the weather and I asked him how he was enjoying the Atlanta and, you know, all those sort of niceties. And then it just got to this moment where he, you know, did the statesman thing and he said to me, you look like you've had a bit of a rough morning this morning, but you know, you're a great champion. You know how to win. You'll be fine. Don't forget that. And at the time, I kind of like in the moment, I obviously thanked him and was, you know, really, I mean, it was amazing to meet him and it was good of him to take the time. But I remember sort of jumping in the water, doing my warm down and thinking, yeah, that's not enough. I need something else to make the difference or to turn the dial here, you know. But it was incredible thinking back on it now, sort of the next 48 hours or 36 odd hours between the heat and the final. You know, I had these amazing roller coaster up and downs, but really what it came down to, to be able to swim well in the final was just, it was this moment of recognition that, you know, you've been swimming this race your whole life, you know how to do it. And the things that enabled you to be successful when you were young still matter. And all of this stuff that you're worried about as an adult that is getting in the way of allowing you to swim well doesn't matter. And just relying on that experience in history and recognising it and not taking it for granted, actually using it with purpose. You know, it became a revelation and it really, you know, at the time connected like, certainly now when I think back on it, you know, it was very sage advice from him. And if I'd have been just a little bit smarter, I would have worked it out just a little bit quicker than I ultimately did.
BEN WATERWORTH: What an incredible story. That's amazing. Did you ever then get a chance to go and hit some balls with him? Like, did your coach pester him enough to get an invite to kind of have a round or two with him?
KIEREN PERKINS: No, in fact, I didn't see him again for quite a number of years. But Qantas, back in the golden days of corporate hospitality, used to run golf days. And I did a few of them. In one year, ended up doing it. Greg Norman was there. And we played a couple of holes together. And one of the things that, you know, he's a unique cat, as I'm sure anyone that's seen some of his more recent socials would recognise. And I remember, you know, we played these two holes of golf. I didn't play golf. I wasn't a great golfer. I just, you know, was doing the corporate thing. And he gave me a few tips as we were playing. And then at the end of it, just said, you are really absolutely hopeless at this, aren't you? What are you here? Thanks, mate.
BEN WATERWORTH: The bus changes a little bit from Atlanta.
KIEREN PERKINS: Yeah, yeah, yep, yep. But yeah, it's funny how life cycles around. But I have met him a few times and spent time with him at a few different events and things. And I've met, there's been very few people I've met who are perpetually driven. Like, there is nothing that that man does by half. He never takes it easy or gives himself a free kick on anything. Like, that's a human being that you're not surprised. He's as successful as he has been in everything that he does because he is a driven man.
BEN WATERWORTH: On Sydney, there's a side question I want to ask just in regards to the bid based on an interview we just had on the show. But had the next Olympics after Atlanta not been Sydney, do you think you would have continued on for a third Olympics?
KIEREN PERKINS: I think probably not. It's hard to know. Sliding doors, moments in life. But when I came back from Atlanta, I was pretty burnt. And at that point where you're getting married, thinking about life after sport, you're getting older, you're wanting to move on and move forward. And after the difficulty that I'd had in Atlanta, which had been a couple of years of difficulty, I know the race and the moment of the Games themselves is the focal point, but it was really a challenge after Rome for the 18 months from then to the Olympics, that it was all hard. And yeah, I did spend quite a bit of time after Atlanta wondering, could I, should I go on? Can I do this for another four years? And there is no doubt that having a home games pushed me a bit harder. There was a higher sense of obligation than what there might have been if I hadn't had a home games to race at. And I think you'll see that in Brisbane in 32 as well. There'll be athletes that will stay in the pool longer because they've got this opportunity. And that's one of the awesome genius things about a home games.
BEN WATERWORTH: I already heard a lot from several athletes just coming back from Tokyo how they're saying, I'm pushing myself to Brisbane. It's 11 years away, but it doesn't matter. I'm going to go on that. We recently spoke with David Mason, who, of course, was a producer on the bid presentation that eventually went there from Sydney. You were obviously involved in being a bit of a spokesperson helping with that bid. He mentioned that he had a conversation with you. I think just after Sydney got announced and said something on the lines of, like, is this as good as an Olympic gold medal? And you said something along the lines of, this is better than winning an Olympic gold medal. I mean, does it make it a little bit extra special to come away from a home Olympics with a medal, knowing that you kind of maybe played a bit of a part in getting those Olympics to Australia and being involved in the bid from the very beginning?
KIEREN PERKINS: Oh, look, absolutely. I mean, it's not something that you sort of talk to because there's a lot of people that put in a hell of a lot of work into making that happen. But having the chance to be in Monaco to be part of the bid team, part of the presentation, as well as all of the work that went on outside of the actual session, the IOC session, look, absolutely. I mean, I look back at that, and I still, in many respects, I can't believe I was there involved in that. 20 years old, on my own in Monaco, dining and standing up and presenting in that environment, representing your country in its opportunity to have an Olympics. And it really was a bit back then. It really was a, in this moment, you can win or lose it on the way that the undecided delegates take on your presentation. So it was monumental. And I think the reason, too, the comment about how it being better, one of the reasons that drove that is that you knew, when I swam, ultimately, it was for me. Yes, you're representing your country. Yes, all your coach and your family and everyone who's put in all this effort to get you there, you feel a sense of connectedness to that. But actually, when it's all said and done, really, it's your performance and your ability to then assess, have I succeeded or not? Being a part of that bid team, like a whole other level of pressure, right? I didn't at that point consider myself to be someone who was a professional presenter or public speaker, and I had to public speak. I had all of these other people who had dedicated years and years and years of their life to get us to that moment. And then, of course, when Sydney was announced, the celebration was out of control. And that famous video of Geoff Fay jumping in the air and bouncing up and down, I was sitting behind him, so he couldn't see me because he was bouncing up and down like a lunatic. But being in that space at that time when that was announced, it really was quite extraordinary. It was amazing.
BEN WATERWORTH: Which then that unique aspect that we're going to see in the next 11 years on Brisbane, and for you, a home Olympics, your home city, 50 years after experiencing a Commonwealth Games. I mean, is it something that you see yourself maybe being involved in or sort of doing what you can maybe to help promote another Olympics in Australia, literally in your home city?
KIEREN PERKINS: Oh, look, yeah, I have no doubt that there will be things that will come up along the way. I don't have any sort of grand plan for pursuing a specific role or anything. You know, I'm honoured enough at the moment to be the president of Swimming Australia, and I think that works as an opportunity to help swimming get into the right position so that we can absolutely present the very best team in Brisbane in 32. And, you know, whatever else comes along, we'll see. But yeah, I'd like to think an Olympics in my hometown, you know, 40 years after I won in Barcelona, there'll be some connection there.
BEN WATERWORTH: Look, I'm calling this now. Now, I've already said on this show, two potential final torch bearers, the Cauldron Lighters, a Cathy moment. Now, your name is definitely one as a great Queensland athlete, or Stephen Bradbury. Now, I'm just saying, like, maybe you two can do it together, or maybe you can go to light the Cauldron, then you fall over. And then he picks up the, and then boom, done. Like, come on, like, I mean, you can take this and pass it on to the officials. I'm just saying, a good idea. Come on.
KIEREN PERKINS: That is that I will be taking all credit for that idea and throwing it forward. And knowing Steve, I think he'd enjoy the irony of it, have some fun with it as well. So, absolutely.
BEN WATERWORTH: I'm just looking here quickly through the past final, you know, the Cauldron Lighters. It doesn't look like a swimmer has ever lit the Cauldron. So, there's a bit of history that potentially that can happen. I didn't. That's surely not true. This list I'm looking at, that can't be correct. There's got to be at least some swimmer who's lit it. That's insane if they haven't. Come on.
KIEREN PERKINS: Well, yeah, I mean, I would have thought, who lit it in 56? We had all those amazing runners, didn't we? Yeah, Ron Clark, there you go. So look, yes, I mean, Australia is unique in our love of swimming. There's only probably a few other nations that revere their swimmers at the level that we do. But inevitably, the person lighting the cauldron would be a current athlete. They're usually someone who's competing, has that honour of the last bit. But you never know. I mean, in Sydney, it was an amazing moment watching all of those, you know, Dawn Fraser, Raelene Boyle, Shirley Strickland, and amazing women handing the torch off to Cathy. So you never know. There might be some opportunity for them to round up a whole bunch of us oldies and get us involved. But it's a hell of a list, right? I know she may not be a Queenslander, but Emma McKeehan has just become the most decorated Australian Olympian in history. You know, you've got names like Ian Thorpe and Susie, who you mentioned. I mean, the list goes on. So yeah, it'll be a hotly contested field. But if I get to just be there and watch, I'll be honoured.
BEN WATERWORTH: Just saying. So I'm pretty excited for them to have multiple final ones. The Miracle on Ice in Salt Lake, we had four in Vancouver, I remember, with Gretzky and everyone else. Now, Kieren, before we wrap up with a set of final questions just to sort of get to know you a little bit better, I'm sure these are some questions you might not have answered. Just quickly, you mentioned, obviously, Swimming Australia, Mr. El Presidente. I don't know if that's what we're meant to call you. How's that role going and sort of how are you enjoying sort of being now the president of an organisation that you used to, I guess, compete for, through your entire career?
KIEREN PERKINS: Look, it's actually a hilariously ironic thing, right? Like, as an athlete, had all of the requisite levels of disdain and angst for the gravy train officials that were running the sport, and here you are sort of 30 years later, and you're in that position and you think, man, the 20-year-old Sima would have absolutely been disgusted. But the 48-year-old looks at it and goes, you know what, I love my sport and I want it to be successful, and I'm committed to helping it. It's a really hard job, I have to say. In a federated sporting environment, running the national body where you have sort of all the responsibility but none of the accountability, it can be quite hard. But we love it, and all of us that are involved are committed to wanting to see the sport do well. So it's great, but as I often say to people who don't know, it's the most stressful, labour-intensive, unpaid volunteer role that you're ever going to pick up.
BEN WATERWORTH: Wow, that's good advertising for your successor.
KIEREN PERKINS: I'll line someone up and give them the dead man's handball when the time comes. It'll be fine.
BEN WATERWORTH: Perfect, perfect. Now, as I said, we wrap up with a series of Get To Know Your Questions. Now, these are based on a questionnaire that Team Canada put to their athletes ahead of Rio and Pyeongchang. Bit of fun, and we're using the questions that they gave to the great Emily Overholt in Rio, so we've got to keep the swimming sort of page here. So I'll start off with Kieren. You're allowed to answer yourself if you want to. The greatest Olympian of all time is?
KIEREN PERKINS: Greatest Olympian of all time? Look, the Aussie in me says that, you know, you've got to throw Dawn Fraser up as the, you know, the first woman to win three consecutive gold medals. Just a phenomenal, phenomenal feat. But I think, like most Australians who love swimming, it will be very, very hard to ever forget the things that Michael Phelps achieved in the swimming pool. Just an absolute freak beyond all recognition.
BEN WATERWORTH: Do you remember, like, recognising him? Because he obviously competed in Sydney. Like, I mean, was this something that you kind of go, oh, there's a little kid. He might go into great things. Or when he eventually made it, you're like, oh, I remember seeing him in Sydney.
KIEREN PERKINS: 100% no, absolutely not. Did not recognise, he wasn't on the radar. I think he got a bronze, didn't he, in something, in Sydney?
BEN WATERWORTH: I don't think he medalled in Sydney, no. I think he went to Athens to be medalled.
KIEREN PERKINS: Yeah, so no, no recognition. But five games and, you know, became the first man to win three consecutive golds and did it then in two events, I think, in the end, didn't he? Just a freak, yeah, absolute freak.
BEN WATERWORTH: The first Olympics you remember watching were?
KIEREN PERKINS: That would have that would have been Los Angeles in 84. Definitely.
BEN WATERWORTH: I always like it when somebody can answer one older than me. My first I remember was your first Olympics in Barcelona as a five year old. So, you know, kind of just to balance that out. Your favourite ice cream flavour is?
KIEREN PERKINS: My favourite ice cream flavour. That's a good one. I've had a very long affinity with what when I was a kid, used to be called a choc mint choc wedge. Now, you know, you can get those fancy magnums and things. But, you know, if I was at the ice cream shop, you know, the gelato place, I probably tend to go stretch teller every time. So choc chip.
BEN WATERWORTH: Good answer. Now, obviously, it's a bit fancy now when the swimmers walk out onto the pool deck with the flashy, you know, graphics and everything. You didn't quite have that, but if you did back in the day and you had some walk up music, what would your song be as you walked out onto the pool deck?
KIEREN PERKINS: Oh, that's a hard one. God, my walk out music.
BEN WATERWORTH: I like that I've got in thinking, this is good.
KIEREN PERKINS: You do, yeah, well, because I'm thinking, you know, so this, so what are we talking, 80s into the 90s. I mean, there was a lot of really bad music around back then that we absolutely loved. I mean, glam rock was at its peak. You know, I was a big, big Oz rock guy. So, you know, you sort of want to do the right thing. You got to pick an in excess song or Hunters and Collectors or something like that. But-
BEN WATERWORTH: Perfect choices, I see it all. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
KIEREN PERKINS: But then, you know, Bon Jovi or something like that would have to get in the way also. I don't know, how about completely left field, just because it's popped into my head. Steve Tyler and Run DMC, Walk This Way.
BEN WATERWORTH: Oh, yes, yes. I like it. That's great. That could be the best one we've had on this answer. I like that one. Last one, I'll ask you then, Kieren. I don't know if you even have time. You're a busy man, but the most recent TV show that you binge watched is?
KIEREN PERKINS: Peaky Blinders.
BEN WATERWORTH: Ah, nice. What did you think of it?
KIEREN PERKINS: Absolutely loved it and looking forward to the next one. I mean, there's a whole bunch of stuff that in, you know, the hundreds of days of Melbourne lockdown that I've been getting into and enjoying watching. But that was one that I started watching it. I've never seen any of it and managed to crash through five seasons pretty, pretty quick. It didn't take me very long. I've been completely hooked. Loved it.
BEN WATERWORTH: World record time, one would say, maybe, you know, just along those lines.
KIEREN PERKINS: Possibly not, but it was a good crack.
BEN WATERWORTH: Kieren, I have to say, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the show, to go over your journey and everything else in between. We appreciate it and we look forward to seeing that cauldron being lit at the Gabba in 11 years time. You and Steve are like, just distil it for us. Come on, it's a perfect way to get those Olympics open in 2032.
KIEREN PERKINS: You have to start a movement for me, Ben. And push it hard. Thank you.
BEN WATERWORTH: And a massive, massive thanks to Kieren for his time, such an honour. And wow, I'm really liking this idea of the cauldron being lit at the Gabba with Kieren and then Stephen Bradbury. I think it would fit so well, you know, two great Queenslanders, two great Olympic Queenslanders, just going out there and getting the games off with a bang. So we'll be sure to start that campaign moving forward. And moving forward, of course, we've got some great episodes coming your way, interviews and everything else in between as we get closer and closer to the Beijing Winter Olympics. If you want to stay up to date with who we've got on the show, what other episodes we've got available for you to listen to, search for us on social media Off The Podium, Instagram, of course, Twitter, Facebook. Hit us up, send us a message, let us know what you're thinking of the show, request a guest, say hello, or just suggest something. We'd love to hear from you as well. And if you never want to miss one of these episodes, the best way to go about it is subscribe on all good social media platforms, or the podcasting platforms, I should say. Search Off The Podium, hit the subscribe button. Leave us some feedback. We'd love to hear what you think of the show there too, and give us a rating out of five. I think today's episode, solid five. Just saying, I'm biased, but that's how I meant to be. Massive thanks to Kieren again. Thanks to everybody for listening to the show. My name is Ben, and as always, go left.
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