Jamie Sale Interview
An absolutely incredible interview to bring you today as we chat with legendary Canadian figure skater and Olympic gold medalist Jamie Sale! Jamie gives us an insight into just what drew her into the sport, her experiences at the Olympics in 1994 and just why she had a literal front row seat to the Nancy Kerrigan & Tonya Harding drama, the entire situation around the 2002 Salt Lake City Olympics and whether or not she gets tired of talking around the entire controversy as well as one amazing story of love and compassion from the entire country of Canada that you will have to hear to be believed. It's an amazing interview that no Olympic fan can afford to miss!
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Please note this is an automated transcript that may contain errors.
BEN WATERWORTH: It is Off The Podium, An Olympics Podcast, coming to you today for a very, very special interview as we continue our interview series, filling in the gap for the time that should have been Tokyo 2020. We have an Olympic gold medallist with us today, a legend of the sport of figure skating, Canadian Jamie Sale. Of course, many people would remember the figure skating controversy from the 2002 Salt Lake City Winter Olympics, together with her partner, David Peltier. There was a lot of controversy around a certain judge and a whole other stuff that I'm sure you're very much familiar with. We are not even gonna go into that in this introduction because you don't wanna hear me talk, you wanna hear Jamie talk. You're also gonna hear Colin on this one. Colin join me for this interview as well. He's just not in the introduction here with me right now. So without further ado, here is our chat with Olympic gold medallist, Jamie Sale. Jamie Sale.
BEN WATERWORTH: We are continuing on our interview series here on Off The Podium. Of course, we are filling in the gap when we are meant to be covering the Olympic Games right now, but sadly no Olympics, which means we get the opportunity to speak to some Olympians past and present from all around the world, mainly Canada and Australia, and winter and summer as well. We're meant to be covering the summer games, but bugger the summer games, who cares about them? Because winter games are more important. And we are so honoured today to be able to welcome our next guest to the program. An Olympic gold medallist from the 2002 Salt Lake Winter Olympics, an esteemed career. And I have to say, as an Australian, I am a mad fan of this person. Like I have some fun stories to tell about that whole experience watching the games in Salt Lake City. And I'm also honoured that I'm not the only one on this episode to be doing this interview. Colin is with me here too, and I'll introduce him in just a second. But please welcome to Off The Podium, the one, the only, Ms. Jamie Sale. Jamie, first of all, welcome to Off The Podium. It's a massive pleasure to have you on the show today.
JAMIE SALE: Thank you for having me.
BEN WATERWORTH: It's such a thrill, such a pleasure. And Colin, it's a pleasure to have you as well. Can I just say that? Welcome, Colin.
COLIN HILDING: Oh, I'm always thrilled to be here as well.
BEN WATERWORTH: Yes, yes, you are a co-host on this program, but you know, you can be a guest. You can be Jamie's partner today when it comes to dancing. So I'm gonna get you both to-
COLIN HILDING: Yes.
JAMIE SALE: And he's wearing the right t-shirt.
COLIN HILDING: I worried about this, but I wore the flames today.
BEN WATERWORTH: He has converted, I love it. But it's fascinating actually to kind of to chat to you about this Jamie, because I mean, it's been 18 years. I can't believe it's been 18 years in Salt Lake City. I'm sure you're probably in the same boat. I mean, has it really been that long?
JAMIE SALE: I know, I still feel like I'm 24 some days. I mean, I acted anyway, whatever that means. I just, I like to stay youthful. It's hard to believe because it feels so, especially when the Olympics come around, whether it is summer or winter, it feels still very fresh. As much as I do forget little details throughout the games and our experience, we relive so many moments doing interviews like this and talking about the stories and the medal ceremony and all the different things that we had done in that time. So it's really hard to believe. Lots has happened in those 18 years. I mean, my partner David and I, we toured for 10 years with Stars on Ice, and we ended up getting married and having a son. And then we ended up getting divorced, and I'm remarried, and I had another child. And yeah, lots has happened.
BEN WATERWORTH: It's kind of, you have all that life going into becoming an Olympian, then you kind of have all that life sort of afterwards, because everyone who follows the Olympics and follows athletes like yourself, you know, we all are very aware of your achievements going into a games and coming out of a games. It sort of posts that career that obviously, you know, a lot of people maybe aren't completely familiar with. But what drew you into figure skating? Kind of what led you into putting on skates for the very first time? I mean, as a Canadian, you're kind of born with skates on your feet, aren't you? But I mean, what was it that drew you to the figure skating path?
JAMIE SALE: Well, that's a good question. I started skating because my dad played hockey, and my brother was into hockey, and he was older than me, and so I always want to do what my older brother did. And we had these outdoor arenas in all the communities in Red Deer growing up. And so my mum and dad got me a pair of little skates, and I would just putz around on the ice. And some of the photos are hilarious, because you can see the grass coming through the ice. It's melting, but we didn't care. We were just having fun out there. And then my neighbour actually joined the Learn to Skate program in Red Deer. And I remember telling my mum that I wanted to do that with her. And it was just, it was really simple for me. It wasn't anything like I was crazy passionate about it, but I just wanted to be with my friend at that age. So I was five. And then I was in that program, which is the beginner, the foundational program of skating. For two years, I passed all my badges, but I was also in gymnastics at the same time. And they both said that I was ready for the next step, which was full time. So I had to choose which sport I wanted to do. And my mum just said, we were at the gym. And I said, no, I want to skate. And she said, well, we can go home and talk about this if you want, and you can spend some time thinking about it. And I said, no, I just want to skate. And so at seven years old, I decided that that was going to be my career.
COLIN HILDING: The thing I find interesting with getting into competitive skating is that I don't even think I have a full comprehension on all the differences. You know, obviously there's individual programs, there's pair skating, and then there's ice dancing. Now, how do you actually land in just one of those levels there? Do you start out individually and then a coach just says, you know, I think we should pair you up ice dancing or pair skating?
JAMIE SALE: Yes, that's exactly how it goes. So everybody starts out in skating as a single skater, and you go through, when I was skating, so this is dating me because I'm old. We had figures. And for those of us that are, I can't remember when figures left, but I'm 43, so it was a long time ago already that they took figures out of figure skating. But when I was growing up, we had to do figures, free skate and ice dance. And it was all three disciplines that you had to do a little bit of in each. So it was the age, I was about 11, 12 years old when I was told that I had really nice knees, like my knee bend was really good, and I'm like, whatever that means, right? And so we're gonna put you in ice dance. And that was the first discussion that I heard was that I was gonna be paired up in ice dance. And the next thing I knew, I was trying out in pairs. So I don't know what happened in between those two conversations, but I'm really glad that it was pairs because I didn't love dancing. I mean, I did well. I got most of my dances completed, but I much preferred to be flying around the ice and being thrown and lifted. And that was definitely the discipline that I enjoyed the most, even more than single skating. I loved having a partner and doing, yeah, just doing all the tricks with somebody. It was so much more fun for me.
BEN WATERWORTH: Because you, actually, your first Olympics was 94, that you competed in with a different partner. It wasn't David. So, I mean, what was that? Was that always a goal, obviously, as a figure skater, first of all, to get to the Olympics? And what did you take out of your very first Olympic experience? You didn't medal, but I mean, I'm sure there was still a lot of experience that you kind of came away with that.
JAMIE SALE: Oh, I was 16 years old at my first Olympics. I was Oksana Baiol and I, who won the ladies event. We were the youngest Olympians there in Lillehammer. And I was like, I just felt like such a baby. And I had just big eyes and I had no pressure because we were the third Canadian team to be there. As Canadians, you know, we often are just always so happy to be there, right? We hear athletes say that a lot. I'm just happy to be here. That was my case that year. But what I realised at that Olympics was that I really want to go back and I really want to be on the podium. I want to win. I want to have that gold medal that I just watched somebody win. And that was really eye opening for me to experience. And that was the Olympics where the Nancy and Tonya battle was going on. So there was a lot of drama around that situation. I remember being in the dressing room after the ladies practice. And I mean, there was media everywhere. I couldn't even imagine them practising because they had like 500 cameras clicking the whole practice. But they came in the dressing room and I just remember sitting there going, I cannot believe I'm witnessing this. Because it was kind of like a movie. And then, you know, Nancy had like five people around her and Tonya had nobody, but she was super friendly. She was just chatting with me and about pears and what I was doing. And anyway, it was really kind of surreal for me. And I was just, I was there also competing against my idols, Gordieva and Grinkov, and all these amazing pear skaters. And I really was just soaking it in that I was a competitor in this event with all these amazing pear teams.
COLIN HILDING: Not so much a question, but just a comment I gotta pass along. A couple of weeks ago, at least the time we're recording this, I interviewed John Montgomery, who of course now is more well known as the host of Amazing Race Canada. And we always ask people like, how did you get into the sport? Did you always want to be an Olympian? I love hearing that you said, oh, I saw these other athletes and I really love this experience because John was the first person, Lisa, that I've interviewed that said, I just wanted to be an Olympian. I didn't care what. And he specifically mentioned you and David in Salt Lake City saying, I saw that and I'm like, I want to be this. So you helped inspire John Montgomery to be an Olympian. And he literally just said, I don't care what the sport is, I'm going to be there.
JAMIE SALE: Well, that I would say that that doesn't happen very often. So that is very impressive for him. He's a really cool guy.
BEN WATERWORTH: Very. It's crazy to think that you were kind of a front row seat in many ways for the whole Tonya Nancy situation. And then, I mean, your next Olympics, the next big skating scandal, you were kind of involved in. So it's kind of, it's unique to think that you had no clue as a 16 year old then that, hey, you know, these cameras are going to be pointed at me in eight years time constantly like this.
JAMIE SALE: I know, who would have thought? And there's been so many other examples and stories of this where, you know, if you look back at it now, you're like, oh my gosh, I knew then. But I, of course, wouldn't change anything. I think even my experience at the Olympics, as much as everybody's like, you were robbed, and, you know, you guys should have won this or won the gold. And I feel that everything worked out the way it was supposed to. And David and I, you know, as we, from the very beginning, after we skated, we both just said that, you know what, we came here to do one thing, one job, and we did that. So let's be proud, let's keep our heads high, and let's take the high road and all this, because this is going to become an absolute shit show. And you know what? It played in our favour. And people were really embracing us as Canadians, and the Americans really adopted us as their own, and were having us on all the talk shows and the covers of magazines, and we became household names. And so, you know, very quickly, we found ourselves just living the high life, these two small town Canadian kids. And, you know, Jay Leno's talking about us and having us on his show, Rosie O'Donnell and Larry King. And, well, there's a good story in there too. David, we were on Larry King Live, and David, he asked us, how is it in the dressing room with the Russians? And I'm like, oh, it's fine. But, you know, David said, well, Anton and I, we sometimes we just sit around, we talk about the birds and the bees. And I look at Dave and I'm like, you do? And he, so you can hear Larry laughing in the background. And I'm kind of giggling, and Dave's like, wait a second, because he's French Canadian. He's like, I don't get what you guys are laughing at. And I said, Dave, the birds and the bees, like, do you know what that means? He's like, yeah, just chatting. We're like, yeah.
COLIN HILDING: Do we need to start at the beginning here?
JAMIE SALE: It was so funny. And it was just so, we had so much fun. So I'm in many ways, and in most ways, we're so grateful and so appreciative of the love and support that we received. And I do want to share another story with your listeners that is so important for me. One of the best things that also happened out of this whole experience was in the six days between us getting our silver and our gold medal, there was a group from Calgary that decided that it wasn't okay for us to have a silver medal. And nobody knew we were gonna get a gold medal anyway, but they just said, this is not okay. And so they collected gold from the citizens of Canada to make us our own gold medals. So when David and I actually got home from Salt Lake, they came to our homecoming show, this group, and they said, we have this beautiful thing to present you. And we were just very overwhelmed. So we were like, okay, we'll do it during intermission. But then when we saw what they gave us this box and I opened it up, I was just completely overwhelmed with a lot of emotion. It was very, it just hit me like a tidal wave because I couldn't believe that I was looking at this beautiful gold medal that these people had made us from gold jewellery from the citizens of Canada. And then inscribed on the back is this beautiful message in English and French of just their Canadian pride and how we made everybody just proud to be Canadian. And it was just, oh, I can't remember exactly what it says, but it was very sentimental. And I always just say it just exemplifies how Canadians are and how we're very quietly patriotic, but we're very proud people and very loving people. Like this doesn't happen anywhere else. You would never see this in any other country. So we have two gold medals.
BEN WATERWORTH: Well, I saw you share that on social media recently, actually, and I was going to bring that up and a great little story. I mean, I guess, do you kind of put that private place with the actual Olympic gold medal to kind of go alongside it?
JAMIE SALE: Well, my Olympic medal from Salt Lake is, I have a little display in our bar area in the basement. It's kind of cool. My mum actually took the flowers that we got from Salt Lake and she dried them for me. The bouquet that we got off Podium. So I've got the bouquet that's dried with the medal and a couple of little plaques that I got from Salt Lake. And I always collected cowbells. So I have cowbells from Lilyhammer and then Salt Lake. So I have kind of a little Olympic display. And then the other one, obviously, because it's so much more sentimental and special to me, I have it hiding, I guess, if you will. It's in a special place. I don't want anybody to be touching it or looking at it. I mean, I show people, but it's solid gold. It's incredible.
BEN WATERWORTH: More gold than the Olympic gold.
JAMIE SALE: The Olympic gold medals are plated, right? So if you pass them around, and I know that a lot of Olympians have experienced that, if you pass them around, you do school talks or anything, you just have people handling it. Apparently, the colour of the medal wears off, like whether it's gold or bronze. Yeah, because they're just metal underneath, right? So eventually mine could even turn a little silver. We don't want it to turn silver.
BEN WATERWORTH: No, and that one back.
COLIN HILDING: Yeah, you already dealt with that.
JAMIE SALE: Yeah, well, and we had to give the silver medals back, which we thought was really funny because they were ours. You know, they had our names on them. They were ours, but they said, no, we're coming to collect your silver medals at the dorm before you guys go and have your gold medal ceremony. We're like, who's going to keep these? Like, we just, anyway, so we sent a letter to the International Skiing Union just to ask politely after the Olympics, when things have kind of settled down, if we could get these medals just because they're ours. You know, nobody else is getting the silver medals. So can we maybe have them? And we didn't want to sell them. We just wanted them for our own keepsake. And they basically said, beat it. You know, you got your gold medal. So, you know, basically, it wasn't very polite. And we were just kind of like, wow, okay. So sitting on someone's mantle to show off.
COLIN HILDING: All right. But I love hearing that you got that the Canadian made gold as well. But you said it took like six days. And I think what I remember from Salt Lake, and it was guaranteed everywhere outside of Canada, like you said, America, everywhere else. This was just media storm, but this was pre social media. And everything. So obviously, you weren't here at the time, but Canada, looking back on the last two scandals that we were involved in, there was Ben Johnson, 88. There was Ross Rebliati, a 98. So I think this was almost like something Canada needed. It's like, okay, there's a scandal, but we're in the right, we'll come out on the right side of this. Did you have any perception in that six days prior that this is something that the country was rallying behind you to?
JAMIE SALE: Oh, we knew, I mean, we knew that, I mean, because we were in the US, we were hearing it and we were seeing it and feeling it a lot more. It was, it was loud, but we were getting emails and messages from all kinds of Canadians from our, oh, from every premier and like, you name it. Other celebrities, other athletes, we had Wayne Gretzky was there and all the hockey team, they all gave us lots of attention and they gave us a jurors. We had such an incredible six days. And even after we got our gold medal, it continued to keep going with so many different surprises and really cool experiences. I mean, we just couldn't even imagine. We know that these things wouldn't have happened if we won the gold all right, right? So in hindsight, I mean, it really, it worked out for us. It was really special. It was an Olympics that many people, as you guys say, will not forget. You know, you mentioned 2002 figure skating scandal. Right? You know, it's us. And it's, like you said, we turned it into a positive thing. And you know, it definitely changed our sport for the better. They found a way to come up with a better judging system, which is great. And I mean, I hate that it, I don't like that it's, it tarnished our sport because there are so many sports that have problems with whether it's drugs or it's refereeing or whatever. It's bias. You know, you've got referees can say in any sport, really anybody that's judging a refereeing, it's their opinion. You know, you take football, you take soccer, and they can make any calls and you can be, you don't have to agree with it. So track and field, you've got drugs, you know, every sport has their thing. So figure skating has always been a beautiful sport. And I think that we just have to continue to see it for what it is. And yeah.
BEN WATERWORTH: Just want to take you back slightly before the Olympics and kind of when you got the chance to partner up with David for the first time, I believe you kind of had a bit of a trial with him sort of 96, and then you eventually partnered up fooling with him in about 98. Was there something with David that just kind of made you to click? Was it coaching? I mean, what was it that you think kind of drew you two together and enabled you to become so successful?
JAMIE SALE: We had an amazing tryout in 2006. It was really, really good. And I remember being in Montreal and just, I was a little, I felt a little out of my element there because I could tell that I was on territory that I wasn't really, for other girls, necessarily welcome. Like David was the one that everyone wanted to skate with. And so when I got there, I could feel that there were a lot of eyes on me and trying to intimidate me. But the tryout, nevertheless, was really good. And I just remember leaving there feeling like, this is gonna be amazing. And then I didn't hear from him. And then finally I got in touch with him. And I guess he had been advised not to skate with me. And for whatever reason, and that it doesn't matter now, of course, but I remember just being so heartbroken because he was supposed to come in 96. I tried out with him, I believe it was January or February, and he was gonna come in March during the World Championships in Edmonton to skate with me again. And so then he wasn't coming. So I was devastated. And I remember at that point, just feeling like my life was, my skating life anyway was over. And this is just not gonna be good. Because I didn't enjoy going back to singles. And I knew David was the one to skate with. Like I, there was nobody, I had a couple other trials and they were good, but David was the best. And so I was very discouraged and felt like, I don't know how this is gonna play out. I don't, you know, I don't, I don't know what I'm gonna do. So I hung in there and another, I remember I missed a couple nationals and then finally I made it to nationals in 98. I just needed to be seen. And so I saw him there and I said, I knew he wasn't happy. I knew I could tell that he wasn't in a great place with his partner. And I'd heard rumours that he was gonna quit. So I ran up to him and I'm like, Dave, you can't quit. You cannot quit. And I said, please like, and he's like, no, I'm not quitting. I don't know why everybody's saying that. And I said, well, can we please try out again? Like make a go at this. And so long story short, we ended up doing another tryout, which really wasn't a tryout. It was more of just you come to Edmonton and let's just like start fresh. We hired a new coach. So I ended up moving to Montreal in March that year in 98, two months after nationals. And everything began the end of March.
COLIN HILDING: There's a big gap there. So you were in Lillahammer, and then you two eventually would win gold in Salt Lake City. Were there any aspirations to get in for Nagano, either with him or another partner?
JAMIE SALE: Well, that's a good question. We actually, when we did the tryout in, it would have been, so the Olympics are in February. So he came to Edmonton, and what we sat at the Glenora Club, where I trained in Edmonton, and we sat upstairs in the lounge, and we watched Elena and Anton compete in Nagano. And I just remember saying to him, I know we don't want to focus on, that we could have been there, but I looked at him like, we could be there right now, competing against these two. But it wasn't meant to be, it really wasn't. And so everything works out the way it's supposed to. I do believe that, but I just, and who knows, maybe if we skated in 96 back where we did make a go of it, and we were training in Montreal where he was, we would have been in not as a positive place as we were in 98 together. So I just know again, looking back that everything really did work out for the best for us.
BEN WATERWORTH: When it comes to singles and pairs, I mean, the clear difference is pairs, you have someone else to skate with, but when it comes to training and sort of getting yourself into a place when it comes to competing, what are the key differences going into it as a competitor, as a single skater versus a pair skater?
JAMIE SALE: Oh, I never been asked that before. The key differences, I think that the part that is tricky is that you have to really embrace the fact that you're different. David is a very different competitor than I am. We both wanted to go to win. We both are very driven. We're both very disciplined, but we have very different personalities. And you have to learn to embrace each other's differences and use them as your strengths, which is really hard, mostly because in the beginning for us, he didn't understand me and I didn't understand him. Like when he would make a mistake, his way of dealing with it was to be angry and show that frustration. In figure skating, he had a hard time because our coach would always say, you can't act like that. It's figure skating. He's like, yeah, in hockey, you can go and slam someone up against the board. In football, you can tackle someone. In figure skating, I have to be all proper. So we had a hard time with that. And then I would be the opposite. So if I made mistakes, I would almost keep smiling and just nervously pretend like I didn't make a mistake because I didn't want anybody to think it was something that I did regularly. Like I would almost just laugh it off. And he would look at me like, well, what, you don't even care? So we were very different in that way. So that was our hardest, our most difficult challenge to get through and to work through. And I think it was really where it got us, actually. It was really hard for both of us was at the national championships, pre-Olympics. I was very unfocused. I, you know, you're going to the Olympics, we're going to the Olympics to win. So Canada is gonna send you, and it wouldn't look very good if they sent you in second place. So I figured in my mind, you know, we're gonna win. And I just wasn't focused. And I went out and I made a few mistakes. And we got, as we were skating off the ice, I went to grab David's hand, because I was so like, I wasn't good, but I just need your hand right now. And he just pulled his hand away from me. And I was like, oh my God, like this feels terrible. I feel like I'm all alone out here. And so it was soon after we left the Kiss and Cry area that our coach and our support team grabbed both of us and separated us and said, that's not gonna work. Like you both need to pull this together. And David, she needs your support right now. As much as I wasn't focused, I still felt terrible. And it's like pre-Olympic skates, you're thinking, well, now I just skated like crap. Am I gonna go to the Olympics and do the same thing? Like there's all this psyche stuff that plays in your head about what you just did out there. So he ended up having to make an apology at the press conference, which was very touching for me because he didn't have to do that, but he ended up saying, I just want to say I'm sorry to my partner for behaving that way. So from that moment on, we thought, you know what, let's pull this together and let's lift each other up and let's use our differences as our strengths and let's go to the Olympics and let's win.
COLIN HILDING: I think the thing that for me that's most interesting about figure skating, from my memory, at least, you're the first one we've talked to, is that there really is a professional circuit after this, whereas with most sports, the Olympics are amateur sports, whereas you can transition into professional. And I guess along with that being in pair skating, the decision kind of has to be made on both of your parts when you're ready to step away from potentially going out for a turn or if you want to move into the professional circuit. How did you guys decide upon that? Or was it something where one of you brought it up and then you just sort of discussed it?
JAMIE SALE: No, we knew right away after the Olympics that we were 24 and 26. And it just from that point on, as you get older, it gets harder, as everybody knows. And so we figured this was the perfect time. We both, it wasn't even a much of a discussion. We were asked right away if we wanted to join Stars On Ice. And I think, you know, we took a break because we felt really burned out after the Olympics. We had done so many amazing things. And we had just signed a big deal with White Strip. So we had all these appearances and we ended up doing some shows through the fall and the winter. But then we joined Stars On Ice the year after. And we knew we were done with the amateur circuit. And even though it was only a short four years, but we knew that with this title, Stars On Ice was going to sign us for a four year deal, along with the Russians. And we were just going to make a really great go at it. And so we did. It was so much fun. We ended up touring for over 10 years.
BEN WATERWORTH: There were no French judges, I'm guessing, were invited. Clarify that. Just with the Olympics, you talk about having that sort of doubt, I guess, in some ways after that performance at the Nationals. How do you overcome that? How do you kind of focus, refocus the mind so that when you land in Salt Lake, you hit the ice for the first time, that you are in that zone that you were going, we are going to walk away from this event with a gold medal?
JAMIE SALE: Well, that story is another good one. So we get home from Nationals and we're a little distraught. You know, I'm flustered. I feel just I'm beating myself up because I said, I just cannot believe that I let myself go like that at Nationals. That was not the performance I wanted. And so we were trying to, because at that point, I was really hard on myself with my jumps. And so my coach just said, Jamie, this is, you know, we're going to just pull back and we're not even going to focus on these. We're going to go back to the single jumps. We're not going to, I know that means nothing to a lot of listeners, but we're not going to focus on double axel and the triple toe. We're just going to go back to the basics is what he said to me. Well, so that was fine for about two weeks. I started to get my confidence back and then I got hit with a flu. Like so bad that I remember it was like a Monday morning. I couldn't get out of bed. My body was aching from head to toe. You couldn't even touch me. I should have probably been in the hospital, but I saw my doctor and I got put on antibiotics. I was sick for the whole week leading up to leaving for the Olympics. And I remember getting on the ice trying to skate on like a Friday and a Saturday. And I just I could barely do one lap around the ice without being out of breath. So we knew that it just wasn't wasn't looking very good. So I believe it was like Sunday before we left where we just tried to do a few elements together. And of course, you know, after I got through my antibiotics every day, I got a little bit stronger, but I was still really tired. I'd never had a flu this bad. Like, I mean, the time it was just ridiculous. And so we left on an airplane from Edmonton to Calgary on Tuesday. And on Tuesday, at that point, we were doing, starting to do like a run through, but we weren't really able to get through with all of the elements, we were just kind of skating it. And then so we get to Calgary and we flew to Salt Lake City on Wednesday. And I just remember practising every day there. And we really, our coach looked at us and said, guys, this isn't about perfection right now. This is about focusing on what you can do right now. And I remember thinking, well, shit, this is not at all what I thought my Olympic experience would be like coming here to win. But he was right. And so what we did every day was we focused on, okay, so we're not doing, we're taking out this jump and this throw for this run through. That's okay. Because normally, we would do full run throughs. And we would just want the judges that are watching to see us look strong and really good. Well, that wasn't the case. I was building my strength every day. So what can you do today? Let's focus on all the positives today. So opening ceremonies were Friday. By Friday, I was feeling actually more confident and pretty darn good. Like at that point, I had my jumps back. I remember the last Thursday and Friday, I was really more, I was back to kind of where I was wanting to be. So Friday was the opening ceremonies and Saturday was our short program. So we went to the short program and all I could do was literally just pray that my body has great muscle memory and that my... So Ben, you asked me about how did I mentally get through this. Well, it was visualization, key, very key and very necessary. I had done so much work before the Olympics, before nationals even, visualizing myself, skating to perfect performances and visualizing even standing on the podium, seeing the Canadian flag coming down in the middle, getting the gold medal put around my neck, singing O Canada with everybody. Like I visualized all of it. And so at that moment, when I'm about to step on the A4R short program, I just remember thinking like, you're ready. And it was constant positive affirmations and speaking things out loud. Like I remember some people pray, he's talked to my grandpa who's passed, he passed when I was 10 years old, and he was one of my biggest fans. So I was talking to him always. I said, Grandpa, I'm ready. And I'm going to skate great tonight. And I just I want you to come along with me tonight and give me that strength and see me through this. And so I was just constantly talking positively. And then we nailed it. Short program was awesome. We just, you know, we fell in our ending position, which I thought was funny. And Dave did not. But he was so mad at himself. I said, no, being in second is perfect, right? Like now we're the hunters. We don't want to be hunted. So I thought I thought the set up was perfect.
BEN WATERWORTH: I just want to ask on that short program, because I sort of in preparation of this interview went back and watched the performances. And as somebody who is, you know, not into the technicalities of the sport as much as I say you of course would be, how does that fall not affect the score like I mean, as a casual observer of the sport, I'm thinking, well, you fell, that's going to have a huge deduction. But clearly that was it because it was right at the end. It just didn't really count against the score.
JAMIE SALE: Yeah, it's not an element. It's not an element. So we're not deducted at all. It's it's really just it's an ending position. It's not it wasn't we had in the short program, oh, gosh, I'm forgetting how many I think there were seven or nine elements that are mandatory. You have to complete them and they were done. Those were done. So it was literally just the ending. If you watch the ending, it's just us playing around and then boom, the ending position. It doesn't it's not a deduction, but it was a reason for the judges to put a second, which I embraced. I thought that was awesome. I'm like, perfect, right?
COLIN HILDING: I can imagine with most athletes, you know, the media and everything that's going to follow you after winning a gold medal is going to last a while, you know, there have been athletes we've tried to get on here and it's like, I'll talk to you in the fall or whatever, you know, this is, you know, in the summer. But I can only imagine for you and David, you know, how much longer this would last. How long was this, this storm of media attention, would you say before it eventually died down and you could just focus on relaxing, let alone getting back into the sport?
JAMIE SALE: That I would say was a good year. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't like craziness. I mean, there was a point where our agent actually let us just, he said they need to be at home and resting because we, I got really sick again after the Olympics, but we did have all these appearances to do. We had an agreement with White Strip, Crest White Strips. So we had 10 appearances to do, plus we had these shows to do. But what David and I did differently than other athletes, because I remember my mum saying, you know, I've got so many people that are saying, you and David could have, you know, be doing all these other things and we never see them or we never hear about them. I said, mum, we're skating. Like we were, we were doing, we were performing and that was our livelihood, right? Like we were getting paid to be professional skaters. So on top of the one sponsorship deal that we had signed with, we were busy skating. You know, it's kind of like when we say today, we don't hear a certain artist on the radio, but meanwhile, they're crazy busy touring and they've got other people going, well, that's what we were doing. But other people were like, well, they should be on field boards. They should be this. I said, yeah, should, should, should, what it could have should have. But we can't be everywhere. You know, it just wasn't, it wasn't what we wanted and it wasn't what we could do anyway. So, but I would say it lasted for a solid year, you know, and then even every time there's an Olympics, there's a lot of attention that comes. And I'm experiencing it right now. I mean, everybody wants to talk to David and I. So but yeah, it was a little bit of a media mayhem for about a year, I would say.
BEN WATERWORTH: With the long program, again, as I said, I sort of rewatched it. And I mean, I vividly remember watching it as a 15-year-old. And I'll talk about that shortly. But I mean, as everybody knows, you nailed it. You absolutely nailed it. And the thing that I love about watching the performance is kind of you mentioned before, figure skating is almost a, you know, it's a proper sport. It's kind of, you know, it's got that sort of grace and beauty about it. You know, it's got that element. But as soon as that is finished, as soon as you've nailed it and look on both your face, I mean, David famously, you know, reaches down to the ice, he kisses it, he pumps it up. Even you've got this big, broad grin on your face. You're pumping up the crowd. The crowd is on their feet like you are getting a standing ovation. I mean, before you enter the kiss and cry, just that must that feeling then like must be incredible because you it's not like a sprint. You don't have that feeling of you cross the line. You know, you've won the gold. You've got the glory. That's the closest you get there, isn't it? So I mean, that then you're thinking we've done it, David. We're gold medallists. That must just be incredible.
JAMIE SALE: We did. We actually because we knew that the Russians had made at least one mistake and they were the toughest to beat. And so the door for us was open a little bit. And we had just skated the best performance that we could that day. And I mean, I mean, people always go, it was perfect. It was no perfect, but it was flawless. It was we had executed all of our elements well. So we knew when we were skating off that we had done it, like we really thought that was it. And so when the first set of marks come up, the technical merit, we knew they were higher than the Russians based on what we, because we skated right after them and we could hear their marks. You don't focus on, you know, you're not focused on the details of, oh, they got four, five, five sevens or five eights and one five. No, you're not focused on the numbers per se, but you can hear five point seven, five point eight, and you go, okay, as soon as you hear five seven or even a five eight, you go, oh, you know, it's not not perfect. So when we had five eights and five nines, we were like, we got it. And you can see our reaction. Like Dave's like, oh my god, we're gonna win. And I'm looking, I'm like, oh, this is so exciting. And here we go. And then all of a sudden, the second mark comes up, the artistic impression and the ordinal number two comes up. And Dave just like fell to his lap. And I look at my coach, and this is like something so ridiculous to say, because I know that this doesn't happen, but I look at my coach and I'm like, it's gonna switch, right? Like, we're gonna go back to first, right? And my coach is just like smiling, going, mm-hmm. And I just, I remember leaving the kiss and cry in just absolute shock. Like if I look back at our body language and how I felt in that moment, I was, that was what shock feels like. Because I went from, we've nailed it, we've got this, we're gonna win, oh my God, here are the marks, we're winning, to psych, just kidding. No, you're not winning, you're second. Now this, and all these things go through your mind, like this changes the entire rest of my life. And not to play victim, but I didn't wanna sit in that too long, but I did. I was like, I can't believe they've taken this away from us. You know, it was our night, and I played the whole thing through my head, like the judges, they did this to us. I was sad, I was really sad, because immediately after you skate, you go back to all the television and broadcasters, and everybody wants to talk to you, and I'm just trying not to cry, because I'm feeling sorry for myself, and I can't believe what I've just witnessed, and the event's still going on, the Chinese are skating, and they're skating really well, and I'm just like, this is so bizarre. But then we went out for the medal ceremony, and Dave just, he hugged me, and he just said, James, like, we did every, this is making me emotional right now. We did everything that we could do today. And that's all we can focus on, and that's all that we honestly, truly came here to do. And we've worked our whole lives, we've been through so many challenges, and ups and downs separately, and then together, and we came here and we did it. He's like, let's keep our heads up, our heads high, and he was strong, he was so strong. So we get off the podium, and I'm emotional, and we start skating around, and it was the French CBC commentators that came down and said to Dave, there's a scandal. There's something going on, and I remember thinking, what? What do you mean, scandal? And Dave's like, there's something going on, there's a fix in. So then it started to make sense of like, oh, okay, that's why we're second. And then as they would say, you know, shit hit the fan, and the French judge went back to the hotel and she felt guilty. And so she spoke up, but there was this four other judges that had a second that were a part of that collusion, right? So I go, but they weren't even mentioned, but I said, the French judge, if it wasn't for her, we wouldn't have a gold medal. She was the one that came forward and said, this isn't right.
COLIN HILDING: It's interesting because it really did happen so fast. And my wife, she never really watched the Olympics until we were married, but I grew up watching every Olympics. And I can remember Salt Lake City, seeing you guys and not knowing all the different technicalities behind, oh, this shouldn't be happening. You watch the skaters' expressions, and I could immediately tell just from the looks on your face when those scores got revealed, like something's a little bit off here. And then you go up, like you say, to get the medals, and I'm like, well, now they seem okay. But at that point, people are already talking. Like, what was the time period in there? And then when you said earlier about how, you can't just hit the boards or do this like you do in hockey, obviously it must have been really difficult in order to maintain your composure. But even still, there was enough emotion there that it was showing forth, even to me not knowing the sport, sitting at home watching TV, I could tell something is a little bit off here.
JAMIE SALE: Well, the cameras were on us constantly. I mean, the Olympics are, there's nothing like it. And that's why a lot of athletes have a hard time with the Olympics, because it's not just your world championships that just figure skating fans watch, it's the world watching you. And so there's not only like all the figure skating networks that follow figure skating, there's always other cameras and you're like, you don't even know who these people are. So we had a ton of cameras in our face. And I just remember thinking at that point, I was really upset and I was angry. Again, that victimization state of just like, I can't believe they've done this to us. I didn't really care. I was just standing there going like, I'm not being a poor sport. I wasn't screaming and like, this isn't fair. But I was just really emotional. And I felt like, wow, like I don't understand what happened tonight. I mean, this is clearly we know, and we knew at that point that the Russians had, he had missed his jump or stepped out of his jump, and that they just were a little off that night. And so we thought, well, this is just craziness. This is clearly figure skating is just fixed, you know, like we were just like, oh. Anyway, so we just kind of held each other, and we just, we held each other's hand, and he kept hugging me, and our coach was so good. He was so positive. In hindsight, our coach knew all along that this was all set up, that he didn't say anything, which is perfect, because I think I would have been a real poor sport about knowing, I mean, why skate if you know you're going to be second? I came here to win. You know, in my mind, like after I heard that, I said, John, how did you not even talk to us about this? And he's like, well, why would I mention anything? Like, we didn't know how this was going to play out anyway. So we're just going to, you guys came here to do one job and you did it. And that's all that we're going to focus on. So the timeline was like, we skated third and then the Chinese were last. And so it was soon after, it was probably 15 minutes later, they were getting the ice ready for the medal presentation ceremony. And it happened pretty quickly. I would say within, from the minute we finished skating to we were standing on the podium, it had been 30 minutes, but there were interviews in there. We had team leaders coming down. We had all kinds of people wanting to talk to us. And then it was just David and I standing on the podium, and I just thought, keep it together. But it's pretty hard, you know, you're super emotional either way, like skating amazing or skating not great. You're on a high, and there's a lot of emotions that rush through you. And I just never standing there like going, I'm not getting what I visualized. You know, I know I should be standing there right now, and I just, this kind of sucks.
COLIN HILDING: And what was so crazy about that was that it wasn't just you two. Cause every once in a while, you see a skater who's like, oh, that doesn't seem right. It wasn't just you two. It wasn't just me as a viewer at home. It was everybody, you know, in 30 minutes, like they were talking about it, and the commentators were talking about it. Like it was so obvious to everyone, which I don't think I've ever experienced anything like that in watching the Olympics before, and probably won't ever again, where it was just the entire world just looked at this and said, no, I don't think so. And not even experts, you know, everybody got it.
JAMIE SALE: Scott Hamilton was doing the NBC broadcast, and he, I have his voice in my head. We're skating into our last throw, and we had three elements after our throw. We had a lift, a death spiral, and a spin, but we were going into our last throw, and he said out loud on television in America, if they land this, the gold is theirs. We nailed it. It was like a beautiful throw. And then, so he's cheering and like, you know, and everybody's cheering. And it's like, in my mind, too, I remember saying to Dave, we did it. And Dave's like, we're not done. Like, because he just got out of any position of our start programs. He's like, we're not gonna stay focused. But the hard stuff was done, and the lift and the, you know, but he's right. Like, we had to stay focused because he could trip or lift could come down or whatever, and mess up a death spiral, mess up a spin, but we stayed focused. And our choreographer said, when you guys finish, and Jamie, you back away from Dave, I want you to hold that for five seconds, and I want you to give the audience and all of us a moment to just really be with you. And so we did that. But I remember pushing away going, one, two, three, four, five. Oh my God, it feels so amazing. And we did it. I just, thinking back to that moment too, is just powerful because I just, it's amazing how much of your history and your past flashes back. Like you just think, I've worked my whole life for this moment, and I can't believe I did it. Of course, now as a 43 year old, I look and I go, of course you did it. You worked your tail off, and you did everything that you had to and some. I remember thinking like, I'm gonna do way more than what my competitors are doing. Like I wanna know how they're good at certain things, and I'm gonna do more of them. I remember learning about Michael Jordan and how he, even before the last dance came out, I remember hearing how he would, if his competitors were shooting 100 hoops, he would shoot 300 hoops. Like he just was always thinking bigger and more, and how can I be the best? And so that's what we were doing. And everyone thought we were kind of crazy, that Russians used to say to us on tour, like, why would you guys ever push yourselves like that and do full run throughs? And I'm like, well, because you guys were darn hard to beat. We had to do so much more than you. And we obviously really looked up to them as beautiful skaters. And I just remember thinking like, oh, what do we got to do to beat these guys?
BEN WATERWORTH: Which in context, of course, too, I'm sure a lot of our Australian listeners are probably unaware of this. I'm sure plenty of the Canadian listeners are. But of course, going into those Olympics, Canada hadn't won a gold medal in figure skating in 42 years and the Russians had absolutely wiped the floor and the pairs. So there was that added element to it as well. And I mean, I think a lot of people remember Salt Lake as sort of the games that Canada broke their hockey drought. But I mean, that was a significant drought, I can imagine, weighing on you guys thinking like, wow, we could be the ones to break this drought.
JAMIE SALE: You know, we weren't focused on that. I mean, we of course knew the length of time that it was, but we weren't really focused on that as much. But yeah, no, it's funny that you bring that up because I remember hearing about it going in. There was so much pressure when we were at home training, we would go to Home Depot to pick up a drill or something because we were people and we built, not build, but we fixed things in our house and we had to do certain projects around home still. So we would go to Home Depot or the grocery store, people would always say to us, you know, bring home that gold medal, you know, and our faces were on the cheerio boxes. So we really couldn't go anywhere without getting comments made. And people meant well, but it was just like, oh, you know, break a leg. I'm like, I don't want to break my leg.
BEN WATERWORTH: So it can help you on the eyes. It's fascinating too, because like you started talking about that reaction and everything. I mean, even in Australia, like it was huge, huge coverage. And you know, for Australian, this was our first ever Olympics that we ultimately won a gold medal. We won two, and that was the first for Australia. So we didn't really have much of a history in winter Olympics, but it was blanket coverage in Australia. You know, until Bradbury snuck through and won the gold, then kind of there was a bit of a different focus for us. But, and I mean, it must have been interesting for you to kind of hear from other countries that aren't Canada, the States, Russia, the countries where figure skating is obviously one of the big sports. And you're probably getting interview requests from Australia and all these other countries, where you think, wait, somebody in that country wants to talk to me about this? What's going on?
JAMIE SALE: Well, that's exactly what I was saying about how the Olympics, it's a way grander stage than just our own world championships. I mean, you go from competing at the Worlds and you've got skating fans and skating broadcast groups, and whatever that want to talk to you, but at the Olympics, it becomes a way grander scale of people and countries. And so that's what makes the Olympics maybe more nerve wracking for some athletes, but super special. I mean, we became, like I said, these household names around the world. We had people from like Australia and Greece and all kinds of countries that really aren't into winter sports or even figure skating that were supporting us. It was so cool.
BEN WATERWORTH: I will admit, and this is just going back, I was saying about how I was caught up in it. I wrote to you guys after Salt Lake and I, and you sent me, you guys sent a signed photo. It was on my wall in my bedroom for years. I've still got it somewhere. So I was, I've got somewhere at home in my grandpa's, God, he's going to hate me for sending it to my father's. Why am I calling you my grandpa? What's going on there? I've got a book filled with all newspaper articles from Salt Lake and all the coverage that would have been in Australian newspapers. So yeah, no, I was absolutely entranced by it, Jamie.
JAMIE SALE: Well, that's awesome. It's a really, it's a neat experience for athletes because I remember when David and I went back to the village late at night, because we went to Canada House after and when we walked into Canada House, everybody started singing O Canada, which was really special. But then we went back to the village. It was probably midnight, one in the morning. I can't even remember how late it was. And we were so hungry. So we went where the athletes eat, the cafeteria, and it's massive. And I remember sitting there and there were these two bobsledders sitting there eating. I don't know, they eat all the time, I guess. I don't know. But they literally looked at us, they're like, we just watched you on that big screen. And they're like, you guys were raw up tonight. And it was just like, that's when we realised that the world, I mean, the world had just watched that. And I mean, you know that, but you don't really understand the actual impact or the how it's like so amplified. And it was such a, like it was such a big deal, right? When it just happened. Because if you're sitting there watching and everybody's going, I don't, I'm not a figure skating fan, but something that's not right, you know? And that's what we were hearing was this, two bobsledders are going, ah-ah. And they were, I think they were from Germany or something.
BEN WATERWORTH: I was gonna say, they went to make them bobsledders, whether that would have been an even cooler experience.
JAMIE SALE: No, but it was really cool to have, to hear from so many different people and different athletes and just different people. It was really cool.
COLIN HILDING: And you know, having success in one sport, you know, especially after a drought like Ben was talking about, will obviously lead to new interests. You know, there's no doubt gonna be huge tennis interests because of Milos Ranić now and everything. And then guessing same thing with sprinting and Andre Degrasse and whether it was just through the media coverage or not. I mean, I have to imagine that a lot of these skaters now, like more in Virtue and Caitlin Osmond, I mean, have you heard of it about any of them saying, I remember this and this is what got me into figure skating?
JAMIE SALE: Not necessarily. I've actually heard the opposite. Not so much from the fans, like more people were feeling like, they felt like, by what I watch figure skating, it's fixed, you know, and it's proven time after time. Our scandal was just magnified because it was in the US but this isn't the first time this has happened. So I felt like a lot of people kept saying to me for years after, even still now, like skating's not the same. And I feel sad for that because I know that the young skaters coming up were doing it for the same reason I started. And they love the sport. And I feel like I said to you in the beginning, in many ways, the sport's even better because now the elements are quantified and the bias is less to happen, right? Because of the way that the system doesn't allow for that as much. So, I mean, there's no perfect, there's no flawless way to judge. But I think there's a lot of young skaters that watch that. Like I do know when we toured, we had moms that would say, I named my daughter after you, Jamie, or stuff like that. And then young skaters aspired to be, because that's how I started. I started 88 Olympics. I was like, I wanna be like Elizabeth Manley and I'm gonna go there. I'm gonna do what she's doing. And so of course there were young skaters that were watching us and going like, mum, that's where I wanna go. I wanna be like Jamie or David. And we know that happens, but no, we haven't actually had a skater say to us, well, we're skating because of you.
COLIN HILDING: We'll get them on the show. We'll ask them specifically leading questions.
BEN WATERWORTH: You got a skeleton racer at least got into the Olympics.
COLIN HILDING: Yeah, exactly.
JAMIE SALE: I think the difference guys is that when we retired from professional skating, I left figure skating. Like I'm now a motivational coach and a mum, and I have so many other things going on that I'm not involved in skating. So if I was still coaching skating or I was involved somehow within the skating community, then I would probably get a lot more of that. But I think that's probably why I don't.
BEN WATERWORTH: How during everything that happened, I mean, how were the Russian pair like? I mean, did they talk to you kind of what was their viewpoint? And also the French judge involved, did you ever get a chance to kind of have a one on one and have a chat with her?
JAMIE SALE: No, are you kidding? No, they would never let any anyone around her after the after the whole thing came out. She was pretty protected. But I think, you know, Elena and Anton were not very happy at the Olympics. They they were quoted, you know, saying that we were being whiners and complainers and need to be quiet. And which was shocking for us because we knew them. I mean, we weren't like best friends or anything, but we were always very cordial with them and we respected them and we appreciated their talent and like we looked up to them and in many ways and then. So to hear them speaking that way was was a little bit. I was hurtful and shocking, but then we signed that four year deal with Stars on Ice and they were there with us. And so we ended up having like honestly, we really enjoyed touring with them and got to know them more personally because we'd only known them as skaters. And so we got to know them a little bit more. Not one conversation about the Olympics came up, not one. Like we don't talk about it. But you know what? It kind of went away quickly because just we were embracing the fact that we were sharing the ice together and we were grateful that we were on tour together and making a great living. And yeah, it was just focusing on all the good.
COLIN HILDING: Before I forget, I have to ask you a little bit about Battle of the Blades, which I don't think anybody outside of Canada necessarily has seen this or probably not many. But I mean, this was a pretty big deal here in Canada for a couple of seasons. And it's essentially the ice skating version of Dancing with the Stars here in Canada, but not so much just random celebrities like let's pair hockey players, figure skaters. And yeah, I do find it interesting just to see that you had an oiler as a partner on the first season and flames as a partner on the second season. I do remember seeing your first season because who doesn't want to watch Tye Dome figure skate. But obviously you're bound to have some great stories about the learning curve of particularly, I guess, your first partner, I'm guessing Craig Simpson, having to teach him how to do this. How does that all work with teaching hockey players how to skate?
JAMIE SALE: Oh my gosh, it was so much fun. We laughed so hard. And I mean, God bless those guys, because they took some really terrible falls, no. And we just got to sit back and kind of go, oh, you know, cover our mouths and we'd be laughing. But they they handled it like champs, all of them. You know, Ty, Ty was funny because he was like, I'm not wearing figure skates. He didn't. And that was actually too bad because it was really part of the show was to getting getting them into figure skates. They're all great hockey players, but like, put these figure skates on, you're gonna learn how to be a pair skater. And as everybody knows, in Canada, the most watched sport is hockey and figure skating is up there. So we thought the producers thought it was a great concept. And most of them really embraced it like they were like, they wanted to be really good at it. So it was a lot of fun. Everybody took it very serious. And I know Craig took it to a whole nother level. He was like, you know, with back injury and all, I thought at one point it was, you know, two or three weeks in, he could barely even walk some days. I just thought like, how is he doing this? I think he's super human. Because when our backs were sore, like we can't even get out of bed. And yet, he showed up for the last show, we knew he had such bad back spasms and could barely function. I had a doctor ready to give him a cortisone shot, but he didn't take it. And he just went out and skate. And I said, listen, dude, like, you're lifting me over your head. You're not just going out for a shift, you know, with a stick in your hand, like this is different. And I don't need you dropping me. And you don't need that either on national television and even just period, right? So but he's like, no, I'm good. I mean, I don't I just still don't today don't know how he he did it, but I won and won. And he didn't even just do it. He skated amazingly like he he nailed it. And I think just think adrenaline and he's just used to that kind of he's got an incredible powerful mind and he put himself in that that mindset of like, it's go time, it's game time. And he did it. Yeah, it was cool. And my second year was a different experience. I chose Theo because we're given opportunities. You know, we're given like, hey, we've got this guy and this guy to skate with. Who do you think? And sometimes I mean, that was my luxury of like, do you want Lanny MacDonald or you want Craig Simpson? And I remember Lanny ended up hurting himself. So I was with Craig at that point anyway, but it was like, do you want to be Apple Pie with Lanny or do you want to be competitive with Craig? And I thought, oh, I'm a flame spat, but I'm competitive. So it was a hard one. So then the second year, I wanted a powerhouse. I'm like, I wanted somebody that was going to, so Theo Fleury came up as an option. And I thought, well, that'll be something else. Like he's really popular and he's feisty and he's competitive. But unfortunately, we didn't make it as far as he wanted to or as I wanted to. But it was a very different experience. I'll just say that.
BEN WATERWORTH: Another experience you had outside of that as well, I believe you were a consultant or a stunt performer on Blades of Glory on the movie. Is that correct? And what was that like working on a movie like that?
JAMIE SALE: Well, okay, that was another cool experience. But everybody assumes because we played a role in this movie, we were the competitors to the pair team, Will Ferrell and his partner in the movie. But we never got to meet anybody.
BEN WATERWORTH: Oh, really?
JAMIE SALE: No, we were on tour. All of us pairs on tour, there was four of us. And they said, can we borrow your pair of teams? We want, we need some background skaters, their competitors. We want to show them making mistakes. And we're like making mistakes, like we're pros. So we ended up going out there and all it was really about is just just fall over the ice and just do an element and fall out of it or miss it or whatever. And so, and then Jamie, look mad at your partner. So I like roll my eyes and I mean, it was just ridiculous, but yeah, we, everybody assumes that we got to meet all the actors and everything, but no, we didn't. But we do get royalties.
BEN WATERWORTH: Oh, that's, well, that's a positive. Thanks Will Ferrell. Thanks for that. The other one, I mean, on movies, like obviously you talked about being kind of front and centre for Tonya and Nancy back in Lillehammer. And they've obviously had I, Tonya, big success, you know, Oscar for Alison Jennings, Margot Robbie, of course Oscar nominated. Will we ever see an I, Jamie David at one point, you know, a movie based on the 2002 figure skating scandal?
JAMIE SALE: I don't think so. That's not my plan or David's plan. I do know that we just filmed, we had a big documentary this winter. There's a six series of documentaries that are coming out on sports scandals. And so ours is one of them. And I believe it was supposed to come out this summer, but because of COVID, I think it's coming out in the fall now. And I will definitely post that on all my social media pages when it's coming out, but that'll be something else. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how that's put together because they did interview us and they interviewed Elena and their coach. And they've interviewed some other people that were a part of it.
BEN WATERWORTH: The French judge? Did they find her?
JAMIE SALE: Oh, I don't think so, no.
BEN WATERWORTH: She's gone into long lockdown, which I mean, this kind of goes back to what we said at the very beginning, Jamie, it said, I mean, nearly 20 years later, and this is still obviously being talked about. Is it something like, you talk so positively about embracing it kind of, obviously you come out of it with Olympic gold medal, the pinnacle of sport, but are there some times where you kind of just like, okay, give it a rest, guys. It's been 20 years. We won a gold medal, we get it. The controversy like, give it a rest.
JAMIE SALE: No, we feel honoured and grateful that people still not only remember it, but want to talk about it. It's a special, special time in our lives that obviously we'll never forget. And it's ingrained in our hearts and our soul. And the fact that people still enjoy talking about it and want to share stories with the rest of the world still, it's an honour. Are you kidding me? It's, I mean, lots of Olympians are forgotten about, and they've done amazing things in their life. And so it's very special for us.
BEN WATERWORTH: One thing that we like to do on the show kind of as a closing point, on the Team Canada Olympic website in the lead up to Rio, and I believe they did it in Pyeongchang as well, they did a questionnaire with several athletes. It was called, Hello, My Name Is, and kind of you got to know the Olympian a little bit better. Now, we like to ask some of these questions because they're a bit of fun. It's sort of some Olympic related, a lot more a kind of, you know, a bit of fun, quirky questions. So I've got these in front of me to ask you, and I don't know if Colin's got them too that he can kind of alter. He's not prepared. It's all good. I've done the research. I'm clearly the one getting paid more today on the royalties, but I'll start off, Jamie, and ask the question to you, who is the greatest Olympian of all time?
JAMIE SALE: Oh, come on. You've given me time to think about this one. Olympian of all time. There's too many.
BEN WATERWORTH: You can come back if you want.
JAMIE SALE: Yeah, let's come back to that one.
BEN WATERWORTH: We'll come back to it. Okay, remember that. Colin, you can note that one down. What was the first, I mean, you talked about sort of watching the Calgary Olympics, but what was the first Olympics you remember actually watching? Was it Calgary?
JAMIE SALE: Yeah, it would have been the Calgary 88 Olympics. I was 11 years old, and I was just enthralled with watching it. I was so counting all the medals that Canada was getting, and I was tuned in every night, and it was cool because it was in Canada. So it was a good time for us. It wasn't five in the morning or late, late at night. So yeah, Calgary 88.
BEN WATERWORTH: Were you there still? Were you still in Alberta? Did you go to any events?
JAMIE SALE: Yeah, no, I didn't go to any of the games. No, it was very expensive. I remember my mum and my family just talking about how expensive it was, but it was cool to watch it. It felt like it was in your backyard.
BEN WATERWORTH: For sure. If you could be any superhero, who would you be?
JAMIE SALE: Wonder Woman.
BEN WATERWORTH: Wonder Woman, yes. I could see you playing Wonder Woman, actually. Colin and I do a movie podcast, and I don't know, I think that it would work. I mean, you can't really do that in figure skating, sort of dress up, but like, I mean, I guess in those sort of professional circuit, when there's maybe a little bit more leeway, did you ever sort of, you know, think we could do a superhero?
COLIN HILDING: Pull out a sword?
BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah, pull out a sword, whip?
JAMIE SALE: No, I just think, I mean, I don't know. I've been asked even about superpowers, and I'm like, oh, my superpower. I don't know. There's so many, I have so many answers, and I've never, but I just right away go to Wonder Woman. I don't know, I just, that's my answer, and I'm sticking to it.
BEN WATERWORTH: Good, I like that. What is your favourite ice cream flavour?
JAMIE SALE: I don't eat ice cream anymore, but, whew! Oh, my gosh. I feel like I'm using up so much airtime here.
BEN WATERWORTH: It's fine. It's better that you do it than we do, so that's all good.
JAMIE SALE: I have to say, it's boring, but I do love a really good French vanilla.
BEN WATERWORTH: Hmm. See, I have, when people answer vanilla, I personally love vanilla too, so I think vanilla's a great choice, and it gets a bad rap vanilla as being too boring.
JAMIE SALE: You put lots of toppings on it if you want, right? But when I was a kid, popcorn was my favourite.
BEN WATERWORTH: Ah, nice. All right. If you were a baseball player, what would your walk-up music be? I've had music in figure skating, but it's not quite like a baseball sort of thing, is it?
JAMIE SALE: No, and oh my gosh, like does somebody, do people normally give you quick answers? Because there's so much music. I mean, I would be listening to Another One Bites The Dust, Queen, right?
BEN WATERWORTH: But that's to put your other competitors, right? You're hoping like they're fallen, so you're like, haha, another one bites the dust.
JAMIE SALE: Bites the dust.
BEN WATERWORTH: Tick it off like that.
JAMIE SALE: There's another one, now watch me.
BEN WATERWORTH: How sick of Love Story did you get after hearing that probably on repeat for about however many years it was?
JAMIE SALE: Well, and that was the second time that we had like second year that we had competed it because the first year, we started skating together in 98, and it was 2000 and 2001, I believe, nope, 2000, that we created that program. So we competed with it all year, and then the next year, we had a whole different program, but we brought it back for the Olympics. So I wouldn't say I was sick of it. It was a beautiful, the way that they cut it to make us, to help us tell a story on this was really, really cool. But, no, I can't say I was sick of it, but I was definitely ready to retire it.
BEN WATERWORTH: For sure, I can imagine. What is the best nickname that you've ever been called?
JAMIE SALE: Best? Hmm. Best. Kurt Browning always called me Pug. I don't know why he said that, Pug knows. I don't know about best, but everyone calls me James.
BEN WATERWORTH: Okay, wow, that's a bit harsh. We had that the other week with- I'm not weak. Yeah, Brendan Rodney and Bucky, because of the teeth. I'm like, wow, I mean, these are ones that you adopt, because I would kind of forget about that.
COLIN HILDING: My wife's name is Jamie, and she has the exact same nickname as James.
JAMIE SALE: Yeah, fun.
COLIN HILDING: Perfect.
BEN WATERWORTH: Now, we touched on this about, potentially there being a movie made about what happened in 2002, but this question is, in a movie about your life, who would play you? So, let's pretend there's I, Jamie, I, David. Who's playing Jamie Sale?
JAMIE SALE: Oh my gosh. Now you're asking me to name actors and actresses. I'm so bad with names. Could Sandra Bullock play me?
BEN WATERWORTH: I could see that. I was gonna say Colin. I thought she was a casting director, but I mean, Sandra Bullock is a good choice.
COLIN HILDING: I was gonna say Gal Gadot who plays Wonder Woman. Like her? Yep.
BEN WATERWORTH: They can both kind of blend in.
JAMIE SALE: I'm gonna think of like even a fiery sort of actress. I don't know. It's funny. I came up with Sandra Bullock because she, I was in a taxi in Toronto once, and the taxi driver asked if I was her. Like, wow, thank you.
BEN WATERWORTH: Did you say, surely said yes. Like, yes, do I get a free ride?
JAMIE SALE: Absolutely. She's only five foot seven or something and I'm five one.
BEN WATERWORTH: Who would play David? There's a tricky question for you.
JAMIE SALE: Oh, man. Okay, this is where I'm, I suck. I'm not good at naming people, actors and actresses, because I'm really bad at remembering names and, but I want to say Ryan's something, Ryan.
BEN WATERWORTH: One of the Ryan's? Reynolds?
COLIN HILDING: Reynolds or Gosling.
JAMIE SALE: Gosling.
BEN WATERWORTH: Okay, right. You have to work on his facial expressions. David's a little bit more expressive.
JAMIE SALE: I know. I know. Brad Pitt.
BEN WATERWORTH: I like these actors.
COLIN HILDING: I want to see them on skates.
BEN WATERWORTH: I see where you're going with this, Jamie. Brad Pitt on skates.
JAMIE SALE: Ryan O'Neill and Ali McGraw.
COLIN HILDING: They're used to the song.
JAMIE SALE: We play them, actually.
BEN WATERWORTH: If you weren't an athlete, what would you be?
JAMIE SALE: It wasn't an option. I never even thought about it. I get asked that in schools. What would you have done if you didn't figure skate? And I said, all I wanted to do was figure skate. You know, from that age of seven, when I decided for it, but then it was about 10 years old. I was like, I really want to 11 when I watched the Olympics. I'm like, I'm going there. So I never thought about it. But I know that if you know, looking back, obviously, if I didn't have that opportunity, I would have gone into something like design like my mum, interior decorating. And I enjoy that very much. But obviously, my career has led me into what I'm doing now, which is life coaching. So I'm definitely in my element.
BEN WATERWORTH: We're definitely going to find out about that before we let you go.
JAMIE SALE: I've got my athlete.
BEN WATERWORTH: You've got your athlete.
COLIN HILDING: Oh, go for it.
JAMIE SALE: Someone that can pop into my mind because he's got a million gold medals and medals, period, is Michael Phelps. I mean, I can't think of someone that has as many medals as he does.
BEN WATERWORTH: No, more than most countries.
COLIN HILDING: Yeah, no kidding.
BEN WATERWORTH: Yeah.
JAMIE SALE: And I know he's not Canadian, but he's pretty spectacular. Yeah.
BEN WATERWORTH: It's actually they did a thing, I think, after Rio, where they basically showed the all time medal count of all the countries ever, and he was legitimately ahead of like 40 countries or something like that. He was incredibly talented.
JAMIE SALE: Yeah. Yeah. So there you go. Best athlete.
BEN WATERWORTH: Michael Phelps. I like it. What is your guilty pleasure snack?
JAMIE SALE: Chocolate.
BEN WATERWORTH: Chocolate. Any particular type?
JAMIE SALE: Chips. I do love Miss Vicky's salt and vinegar, even like the barbecue flavored chips, and I do just like, oh, I don't know, any chocolate bar.
COLIN HILDING: You know, I just have to say it's sounding more and more like somebody who's been intermittent fasting.
JAMIE SALE: My stomach is growling right now.
BEN WATERWORTH: She's like, in the interview, I want to eat lunch, there's chocolate sitting there. Now, I don't like this question because you talk about kind of putting you on the spot and having to think about it. This one is definitely a question that I think you need to think about. It's, what is my favourite song lyric? So I'm going to change that to favourite song in general. I feel that's a little bit easier than song lyric.
JAMIE SALE: Can I look one up?
BEN WATERWORTH: Go for it. Absolutely. We like the research and the commitment.
JAMIE SALE: I'm a big pink fan, big pink fan. I love what she stands for and she's just a powerhouse. I really idolize her because she's... I struggle with what people think of me and just insecurity of how people are perceiving me and judging me. And she's just like, I am who I am. And if you don't like it, then that's your problem. And I really admire that. And she's just a very kind, giving person. As much as she's so raw and really raw, she's a beautiful human. So anything pink for me is, I would pick anything from her.
BEN WATERWORTH: She could play you in a movie. She's done some acting. There you go.
JAMIE SALE: Yeah, I would pick her in a heartbeat. Are you kidding me?
BEN WATERWORTH: She could do the soundtrack and everything. Like, you know, there'd be some sort of like, so I'm Jamie. I'm still a skater. Like something like that.
JAMIE SALE: Like, yes, there you go.
BEN WATERWORTH: It would it would it would go to number one. It would rock it up. Yeah. And David too. Like, I mean, he'd be there in the background, you know. Right.
JAMIE SALE: There you go.
BEN WATERWORTH: You're welcome, Hollywood. You can have that idea for free. What is the most recent TV show that you binge watched?
JAMIE SALE: TV show?
BEN WATERWORTH: Hmm.
JAMIE SALE: My daughter, who just turned seven yesterday, is into Modern Family. I watched it all the time, but we've literally been watching it like episode after episode.
BEN WATERWORTH: There you go. What was your favourite place in the world to compete in?
JAMIE SALE: Japan.
BEN WATERWORTH: Japan?
JAMIE SALE: I've been 13 times, and it's just such a beautiful culture, country. The food is good. Like, the crowds were always so kind and, like, polite and, yeah. I mean, of course, I love competing in Canada. That's a no-brainer. But outside of Canada, I would say Japan.
BEN WATERWORTH: How many times did you compete in Winnipeg, and what was it like competing in beautiful Winnipeg? Winnipeg?
JAMIE SALE: Winnipeg, oh, I can't say I actually competed in Winnipeg, but we toured there every year. Winnipeg is probably one of our better crowds, actually, in Canada.
COLIN HILDING: You're welcome.
JAMIE SALE: You're welcome, yeah. Thank you.
BEN WATERWORTH: Did you, did the shows ever come to Victoria and BC?
JAMIE SALE: We were in Vancouver and Victoria every year.
BEN WATERWORTH: Great. I'm still, I'm new to Victoria, so I'm learning kind of that things actually happened here. So there you go.
JAMIE SALE: I'm not there anymore, Ben.
BEN WATERWORTH: Come on, Jamie, this city needs to get better. You need to come back. What's your favourite video game? I don't know how many video games you play, but do you have a favourite?
JAMIE SALE: Okay. So when I was younger, I would say Pac-Man and then, and then it became a Super Mario with Nintendo.
BEN WATERWORTH: Yep. Absolutely. What is your biggest fear in life? Deep question.
JAMIE SALE: I think everybody's biggest fear is failing at something. And that's what holds a lot of us back. It talks to me still now, right? That fear always is talking to me, like how nobody's going to care what I have to say, and you're not good enough, and they're not going to like you. And so that's just fear. I think my fear is just failing, but I learned to talk to it.
BEN WATERWORTH: That's good. That's great. And what is the one thing that you can't live without?
COLIN HILDING: Love.
BEN WATERWORTH: Oh, that's a good answer.
COLIN HILDING: Love.
BEN WATERWORTH: All you need is love, right?
JAMIE SALE: I can live with all kinds of material things. Can't live without love.
BEN WATERWORTH: Perfect answer. I love that. Jamie, before we let you go, I mean, you touched on before what you're doing now, and please plug away your website, your social media and what you're doing, because you said you're a life coach now, so you're obviously kind of out there doing that sort of stuff. So does that involve a lot of touring? Like do people sign up to programs? Kind of like what specifically is it that you kind of provide with those services?
JAMIE SALE: So I do have a website, jamiesale.com, and I have a little bit of information there, but it's really, I have done workshops in the past. I'm doing some executive coaching with a group out of Calgary called Envision Group. So obviously, through COVID, we've been doing virtual workshops. I've done a lot of speaking engagements, and then people are reaching out to me just simply to help them with, because what I do with coaching, with not the executive stuff, but my individual coaching is helping people create visions and really creating a life that they would love living. And I know that sounds simple, but for a lot of people, that's not an easy thing to do. So I know a little bit about failure and I know a little bit about success. So, I think my clients really love working with me because I'm very vulnerable and relatable. And I share a lot of my life stories with them. And in that process, we help them in my 12 week program or the 24 week program that I have, I help them create a life for them that they would love living. It's powerful. It's so much fun. And honestly, I know that I love what I'm doing and I know that I'm doing the right thing because every time I'm on a call or I'm doing a workshop or anything, I'm just incredibly lit up. I feel so empowered. I feel like Wonder Woman.
BEN WATERWORTH: That's why you would be perfect Wonder Woman. There you go. So great to hear that. And it's so, I mean, reading through a lot of your website and kind of looking at your social media and all that sort of stuff, it certainly seems like something you're very passionate about enjoying and kind of, you know, to find that passion sort of outside of having such a long passion, no doubt in your athletic career to kind of have that too, you know, and alongside obviously having started a family and kind of all that sort of stuff as well. I mean, it's great to see and kind of goes back to what I was saying before about, you know, a lot of us don't really follow athletes outside of their retirement, but it's good to see when athletes are successful out of their athletic career as they were in it.
JAMIE SALE: Oh, thank you so much, Ben. Thanks, Colin. That was a pleasure to speak to both of you today. I appreciate being on your show and thank you so much for this opportunity.
BEN WATERWORTH: And an absolute thrill to talk to Jamie there. Really, really a big, big thrill, and definitely one of our biggest guests we've ever had on this show. A fantastic honour to be able to speak with her, to learn a little bit more about her, and of course, everything that happened in 2002. And just a fun chat there. An absolute pleasure to chat with her, and we definitely thank her for her time on the show today. We have another interview for you next week coming your way. Another Olympic gold medallist. As we switch our focus back to the Australian side of things, keeping this sort of a balance between the Aussies and the Canadians. Charlotte Kaslik is her name. She was a member of the gold medal winning team from the Rio 2016 Games in Rugby Sevens. And it's a fun chat. You will learn a lot about how she got into rugby sevens, the unique way she got into rugby sevens, and how things are going for her right now in lockdown land, the delay of the Olympics, of course, and waiting it out to see if they can go back to back in Rio 2016. So that is next week. Charlotte Castle, stay tuned for that one. In the meantime, like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter, and remember to subscribe to the podcast and all good podcast service. So you don't miss any of these episodes delivered directly to your speakers. Thanks for tuning in to Off The Podium. We will speak to you next time. Good night.
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